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HelmutLeitner -- Fri Sep 4 09:10:42 2009

Fridemar, I would like to see you happy and succeeding in your projects, e. g. the project to produce economic wealth for many people by using wiki. I appreciate your willingness to share and your openness. I noticed your sentence "I have done my part". Can you explain what this means for you? Does this mean that in presenting an idea you have done your part or duty, and now other people have to do their part, that they are somehow obliged to bring the idea to life? And if they do not, you are not responsible for the outcome? Who are these other people? What is their part? Do they know this and have they accepted what you expect from them?

FridemarPache: Helmut, in the same way I want to see you and the peers happy and succeeding in their projects, appreciating your and anybody's good will, sharing and openness in Meatball. "I have done my part" was meant as a temporary (to be deleted) statement, in response of Nathaniel's suggestion to delete some overheated talk units. Although he offered me to delete additionally some involved other peers' statements, including his own, I confined myself to deleting only my own, leaving the option to the peers, to do "their part". So it was only a minor statement, not a big deal. Beyond that, I am meditating on your other questions for expressing concerns on the wider context. Thank you Helmut.

SunirShah -- Fri Sep 4 18:04:05 2009

I've been closely following this discussion. Helmut has been doing a good job, but I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't express my own feelings.

The first thing: You are talking about how we are not valuing you or respecting you, but you never talk about how you can bring value to others. Our relationship with you is contingent on what you give to us, and vice versa. If I give you nothing, I expect you to give nothing. If you're giving me nothing, I will give you nothing.

The second thing: You want to be valued, but you do not even value yourself. If you valued yourself and your ideas, you would commit to them and do everything you could to see them succeed, and to convince others to help you make them succeed. Instead I hear things like if the idea doesn't catch on you will donate it as a seed idea for others to pick up. It explains why you express yourself so disrespectfully of the reader, such as inventing syntax and jargon and cluttering pages.

If you're always willing to walk away from your ideas, you will never be willing to do a better job of generating and expressing your ideas. That is irresponsible and not worthy of the respect or value you are asking for. When I express ideas here, I am committed in seeing that they hold up to reality, are readable, and are worthy of future readers' time. I hold everyone to the same standard.

If you want to build a community with TrueAuthorCredit and WikiNomics, it is on you to take action and show leadership. I want to see you succeed, but first thing is seeing you do it. That's hard work, but we're here to support you. But I will not invest my time and energy in supporting someone who doesn't really care about what they are doing or saying.

FridemarPache: Sunir, I thank you and all the peers for your energies towards building a field of mutual appreciation, encouragement and building. I enjoy to be part of such a field. Especially I like how you and everybody in Meatball can feel free to express their feelings and wants in connection with barnraising Meatball as well as barnraising each participant's barn (which by network effects makes each other's effort more successful).

I am meditating on your words, concentrating myself in the next days on SocialDomaining based on TrueAuthorCredit in the framework of WikiNomics. This activity will be done in specialized communities to share the insights, gained there with Meatball for the mutual benefit of the Meatball barn and the SocialDomaining barn, which I remembered is appreciated by you at Meatball.

SunirShah: I'd be very glad to see you take positive action around SocialDomaining on the various domaining communities you have mentioned.

NathanielThurston -- Tue Sep 8 17:52:07 2009

Fridemar, I am starting to wonder if one of your needs here is to increase the google page rank of the various ideas and concepts you are promoting.

FridemarPache: Nathaniel, thank you for asking this marketing relevant question. Since the beginning of Meatball, I've been supporting the "good marketing" aspect of Meatball. It goes without saying that Google rank is an important CollaborationBooster component in the sense of FosterEachOther, helping at the same time to build the Meatball barn and the barn of each contributor. I did this with many contributions outside of Meatball, pointing to Meatball pages.

SunirShah: Google traffic is the least efficient at bringing in contributors. It's much more efficient to be useful and engaged with other online communities. That results in PageRank and membership. It's worthwhile to have a good Google rank though in order to be a good resource on the Internet.

Speaking of PageRank, note that BiLinking will lower the PageRank of the site for two reasons. Every external link bleeds PageRank. Also, Google has algorithms to detect LinkExchange?s and blackhole the domains. If we have a lot of bilinks, the probability we appear to be a LinkExchange? grows dramatically. (After all, we would in fact be a LinkExchange?). AvoidClutterLinks. Link for the reader's benefit, not for the robots' benefits. I would urge you to expunge all such links.

FridemarPache: Sunir, appreciating our dialogue, I experience mixed feelings: on the one hand I feel resonance with you that:

depending on your personal preferences. I could imagine this as a commercial (e-)book with a DVD or some other medium, similar as practised in another wiki, focused on generative art; as an analogy this art community also enjoys an excellent free basic software and a complete public database of the contributions: The link to the book is [ContextFreeArt: CommunityOfVariation] and I would be happy to buy your book and spread the word.

on the other hand I feel a cognitive and emotional dissonance with you in form and content of your last paragraph, which culminates in: "I would urge you to expunge all such links." Although I think that we can find a solution to increase the wellbeing of all involved parties, it needs some time, consideration and work, since the Google page rank algorithm doesn't appear so simple as known by the early articles on the page rank. Meanwhile the Page Rang Formula is perhaps the best kept secret of Google, how Linkfarms are detected and filtered out. From private SEO talk and my experience I know that there are lots of finer points that go into the formula , like formatting, syntax, vocabulary, context, metadata, etc. Sunir, if I now would going to take your words as a command to be executed, then this would harm you, myself and the community, because it would render you into a GodKing, myself into a coward (with no selfrespect), and the community as a slave company. So I cannot take it as a command, but as an expression of a strong wish to be seriously pondered how to harmonize this with not only my wants but also those of other members of the community.

NathanielThurston: Fridemar, I hope you are taking our criticism in the spirit of Wiki:CriticsAreYourBestFriends. I too would like to see you succeed, but I sense that you may be too passionate about your ideas and goals, causing you to lose touch with the realities of the people around you, which in turn makes it difficult for you to convince those people that your ideas are worth following. I also sense that you might be following an old pattern of mine: insisting that you understand and agree with what people wish from you as a precondition to granting that wish -- in particular, in your responses to Helmut and Sunir ("I will meditate..."). What's wrong with simply doing as we ask first, and meditating about it later?

FridemarPache: Nathaniel, yes I agree with you on Critics Are Your Best Friends, however this relation is symmetrical. I just read your lines and hope my answer to Sunir answers partially your last question.

HelmutLeitner: Sunir, Nathanial, I would urge you to consider that Fridemar has put a lot of work into his linking concepts and in actually creating page structures than span various systems. Although I do not think that there is a substancial benefit in terms of GooglePageRank?, I also think that no harm is done (as long as this link system isn't extending beyond the existing). One can see this as an experiment within Meatball that shows a concept and adds value by doing so (whether right or wrong). Readers can look at it and like or dislike it. I would see it as an act of cruelty to enforce a deletion.

FridemarPache: Helmut, your lines help to understand. Thanks. Agreeing with you, I try to soften the approach.

NathanielThurston: I fear a conflict of interest that may not be obvious to all readers -- page and link clutter vs. SocialDomaining. My understanding is that Fridemar understands the google page rank algorithm well (as evidenced by his successful efforts to win a high page rank for his various SocialDomaining domains), but that -- in large part -- his efforts depend on what we have come to see as page and link clutter. No good solution is evident to me.

FridemarPache: Nathaniel, yes it is a subtle problem, but together, nobody here excluding, I hope we can tackle it.

RadomirDopieralski -- Fri Sep 11 19:29:40 2009

Friedemar, building a guide is not a personal project of Sunir (although I'm sure he does take it personally), but the main goal and reason of existence of Meatball. It's also what brought us here, and what already gave us huge benefits both in our professional and hobby projects. Your links sap the authority of Meatball, in addition to cluttering it, and can't be really beneficial without hurting it and Google even more -- either by starting a commercial service on the artificially overrated domains, or by selling them to entities that will in turn do that. In either case, people who visit those domains, because they trust Meatball and/or Google, will be tricked into earning money for the owner and in turn disappointed. Sure, it doesn't happen now -- but it will happen as soon as you try to monetize those domains. It's like destroying the environment -- our children will pay the debt. On the other hand, the work spent on building the guide accumulates over years and with a bit of luck will serve generations.

Helmut, have you ever seen a grafitti? They are often beautiful works of art, full of details, and sometimes even located in impossible places. The work required to make one is huge, and it is usually done by a single individual or a small group. But often this work of art is placed badly, and considered by the local community to be an act of vandalism -- despite the huge amount of effort and skill needed for its execution. The members of the local community would rather prefer to have that piece of art on a different wall, not as exposed, maybe, or even to not have to look at it at all. But this exposure is precisely why the grafitti artists picked that spot! I think we have a similar situation here: a newly created web page wouldn't have the accumulated wealth of authority and trust to power such a link farm.

FridemarPache: Radomir, it can be seen from another point of view, democratizing the stocks' game, making it accessible helps to interest the masses to grow awareness for the vanitas vanitatis. And taking (bi-)links as graffitti in the bad sense appears to me a misinterpretion. Ask Sunir himself, what he claims as his personal barn and what he sees as the community's barn. Perhaps I misunderstood some statements of Sunir, he made in the latest discussions. In any case I try to find and support a harmonizing approach.

SunirShah: I don't think it's fair to use graffiti as an analogy, as it is not an act of expressive rebellion. I believe it is a misalignment of goals that can be resolved through finding a better solution so we are all pulling in the same direction.

SunirShah -- Fri Sep 11 22:05:08 2009

The ensuing discussion has led me to believe that all these bilinks are search engine optimization. Is that the case?

FridemarPache: Sunir, let me connect my answer to your link on your homepage, that lead to the wonderful Youtube video [EvolutionOfaWiki], which enforced my feeling and thinking that wikis are forming the nerve cells of the (hopefully friendly growing) GlobalBrain. Nobody of us can control the autocatalytic growth of the human knowledge and its interactions, a process, that takes its form as such a brain, or NooSphere. However we, each of us, can try to connect, friendly and constructive regions of this global awareness system. It was TimBernersLee, who already noted the chronical illness of the mainly unilateral connections, that have been leading to and reflect unsound social asymmetries. Wikis have the capability and imho responsibility to help overcoming such unfair structures by bilinking and thus extending our mind horizont, making us more open and transparent. Google appears to be currently the most helpful tool to this end. However Google only really helps, if such activities are placed highly enough. This can be done, with a lot of money or by the solidarity, intelligence and creativity of many collaborating people, who FosterEachOther. It goes without saying, that acquiring and applying SEO can be a key factor in this process.

SunirShah -- Sat Sep 12 00:53:48 2009

TimBernersLee does not advocate mixing SemanticWeb structure with the human readable content as that is garish and lowers the utility and marketability of the Web. Rather these cues are embedded as machine readable RDF in the markup around the readable text.

Supporting embedded semantic markup here is a more healthy approach. Wikipedia has a similar effort.

However back to my point, I follow the Google anti-linkspam efforts closely and it does look like LinkSpam even to me to blast the corpus with tons of out of line links. I am worried of being "bitchslapped". Achieving the semantic web goal has to fit within the rhythm and flow of the Web as a whole.

FridemarPache: Sunir, exactly "achieving the semantic web goal" to reconciliate human and machine intelligence. The question remains, who will determine the "rhythm and flow of the Web as a whole". I think to attempt to answer this question would be impossible to be covered on this homepage :-)

I can see your worries on being "bitchslapped" and the other members

NathanielThurston -- Sat Sep 12 08:48:15 2009

Sunir, I like the graffiti analogy, and I do think that Fridemar's work could be considered an artistic act of expressive rebellion - against the current global power structure (what we see here is only a small part of the big picture). I agree with Helmut - as much as we dislike the link clutter, I feel that dismantling it hastily would be unnecessarily cruel.

Fridemar, I do think there is a strong community expectation here to write for the reader - not for the authors, and only for robotic readers insofar as it doesn't interfere with the main goal of writing for the individual human. PageRank will come naturally with the success of our efforts, as we win respect (and therefore inbound links) for the value of our words, while putting SEO as a goal would undermine our efforts in the long run.

SunirShah -- Sat Sep 12 17:39:20 2009

Well, my concern here isn't "scrubbing graffiti", but being better web citizens. I'm not opposed to Fridemar's actions if they ultimately benefit the reader. (Whether they will or not can only be determined in practice, though I see and recognize the frustration others have expressed in this thread.) I'm going to think about how to improve the information architecture around here to make reference linking more user and Google friendly. For instance, if I added a keywords section like I have with BibWiki, then those keywords could link to Google. I can then track how effective those links are.

While I hate the codebase and would prefer using BibWiki, but MeatballWiki has other experimental features that will not cross into BibWiki, so that is a problem.

What's missing in this discussion is the overall measurable objective. Creating a GlobalBrain is meaningless to me, as it is not specific and definite enough to answer the question, "How do you know when you have succeeded?" However, if Fridemar could describe a measurable objective, we can track and see if what we're doing is working or not and then iterate and improve.

I'm also thinking about metrics for MeatballWiki overall. The old IndexingSchemes are broken, but restoring them would be helpful.

FridemarPache: Sunir, we all are tiny particles in the continuous creation process and can feel more or less happy to be involved. I am very happy that we were not victimes of our emotions and can progress now with good feelings. I pray and hope that Lion's comment on the RecentChanges is not his last word here. I have learned to appreciate Lion and other "opponents" more and more, in spite of all emotional turbulences, which I interpret as availability of enormous energies, that only need to be directed into processes that increase our common quality of life. One way to transform our primitive reptile brains into a friendly powerhouse to drive the Neocortex, is to concentrate ourselves on the barns, we are building and improving. Wonderful to see your efforts to improve the infrastructure of Meatball, please consider to include page stats (VisitorsWeight?) as e.g. AboutUs does, because this gives us more common awareness of our readership. Wether and how giving operational goals with a roadmap, I need some time to ponder. I am watching MeatballMission and your homepage to let me inspire :-)

NathanielThurston: Fridemar, I am sure we have not heard the last word from Lion. I believe his parting statement that he will continue to watch us, and whether or not he is made welcome here, he has access to many of us on the community wiki.

NathanielThurston -- Wed Sep 16 08:06:27 2009

Fridemar, I think you would do well to meditate on DefendAgainstPassion. I think that you have an excess of passion on certain topics, and that this is causing difficulties in the community which are accurately described on that page.

In particular, I think that your excess of passion contributes to what I would call a "listening disability". I have gone to considerable trouble to concentrate and translate our voices into a form that you can hear, with mixed success; and I would far prefer that you took the trouble to listen carefully. Two reasons: it would save a great deal of labor; and more importantly, because I am not confident that I will always be able to reach you in this way.

... I just saw this on friendfeed, and feel sure you'll be interested: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/15/tc50-meet-the-whuffie-a-new-currency-thats-based-on-your-online-reputation/

FridemarPache -- Thu Sep 17 20:22:17 2009

Nathaniel, after an intensive phase of listening, I responded to you and Sunir in MoneyAndCommunity, expressing my thank you there and here for your engagement, especially for your link to the Whuffie thing.

NathanielThurston -- Sat Sep 19 10:49:05 2009

Fridemar, in my opinion you have a [beautiful mind].

F: Nathaniel Namasté, there is only one beautiful mind and we all are child-processes of it :-)

N: In that case, please allow me to say that you have a precious gift for allowing the beauty of the global mind show itself.

JuanmaMP -- Thu Sep 24 16:10:05 2009

Fridemar: as you were interested this is my post about Google Wave, for now a summary of news about it. We're expecting invitations. [Here]

F: Juanma, thank you very much. I look forward to the next week to join it, if possible. The translation page works fine. Do you use Google:GoogleSideWiki+Twitter+WhuffieBank?

HansWobbe -- Tue Nov 3 18:40:46 2009

H: Fridemar, how did you get the apparent links into the GoogleSideWiki page matching ... http://www.aboutus.org/User_talk:MarkDilley ?

F: Hans, I guess you mean [this part]. I am using the macro tool Textpander that wraps CamelCase into Html.

H: Thanks for the answer, Fridemar.

DavidCary: Fridemar, thank you for telling me about the GoogleSideWiki AnnotationWiki. This looks really useful.

F: Thank you David, welcome to GoogleSideWiki. There is a lot work to be done to make it a real wiki. You might want to have a look a WikifyGoogleSideWiki. What is your Twitter address to exchange RTs?

scroll-free wiki -- 2009-11-19

At CommunityWiki:SmallGroupSingularity , you mention the "Slidewiki", an experiment in making a scroll-free wiki (to encourage reworking). I thought it was an interesting experiment, returning to the HyperCard origins of wiki. Alas, today that wiki seems to be offline. Is there anything I can do to get it back online? Or at least get its content back online at some other wiki? -- DavidCary

PS.. Meanwhile, Wiki Answers seems to be the wiki most similar to slidewiki that is currently online. Many pages on Wiki Answers have only a couple of sentences, which concisely but completely answer the question in the title of the wiki page, followed by links to other related pages in the wiki.

Fridemar: Hello David, signaling your interest for SlideWiki makes me very happy. Thank you. Therefore I asked KennethTyler? to recover my old wiki in SeedWiki.

Beyond that I would love to transfer the domain names SlideWiki.net, AskWiki?.net into your domain portfolio for Google:FreeGainSharing as part of our efforts of raising the Commons' barn SocialDomaining.

You can see from my open domain portfolio [Fridemar:OpenDomainPortfolio] that the domains are reserved until May 2010.

Currently we are only two persons building the barn based on FreeGainSharing?, AaronPoeze and myself, working as PairWorkers?, a concept ported from ExtremeProgramming to ExtremeOpenBusiness.

Joining forces with you would be greatly appreciated.

For reasons of WikiBackup? and global collaboration + PR (working like a HoofSmith) I make this response to you a GoogleSideWiki comment: [Thanks to DavidCary for interest in SlideWiki], syndicated to my blog to DiiGo and several other WebAnnotation services and communities.

If interested, what is your TwitteR name for giving you my RT?

DavidCary: http://wikiindex.org/User_talk:DavidCary#SlideWiki_is_restored._Thanks_to_your_signaled_interest. I see that the Slidewiki is now back online at http://seedwiki.com/wiki/slidewiki/ . Yay!

-- DavidCary

NathanielThurston -- Thu May 6 13:53:40 2010

Fridemar, I am extremely uncomfortable equating NVC with ahimsa. It's not the technique, it's the intent, and I do feel strongly that you over-use NVC in your communications with the rest of the meatball community.

NathanielThurston -- Thu May 6 16:21:04 2010

In the future, I would ask that you think before you react mindlessly and predictably to praise.

HansWobbe -- Mon May 24 22:09:08 2010

@Fridemar - I'm feeling quite silly because I simply can't seem to find the methodology for adding CamelCase (or other) hyperlinks into GoogleSideWiki.

  Can you point me to some hints?  Cheers -- HansWobbe

Dear Hans, it is not the system that supports CamelCase. I am using an AutoLinkBookmarklet? that creates on the fly CamelCase links. If you or friends are interested, please ask. -- FridemarPache

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