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Discussion about potential additions to the InterMap list.

InterMapPhilosophy? covers general thinking about what goes or doesn't go into the InterMapTxt file.

Also see ShortCut, InterMapPostFix, ...

September 10, 2000:

Tentatively rejected links (seeking further comment):

For FreshMeat?:projects/moin among other things
CritDotOrg

--FridemarPache

My main objection to CritDotOrg in the InterMap is that these links are unlikely to be useful. CritDotOrg hasn't attracted any significant volume of comments in the past few years, and a majority of the comments seem to be tests or comments about the mediator technology itself. See [1] for the list of recent annotations. From September 20 through October 23 2000, only 41 annotations were added. Ten of those annotations were empty. Most annotations were under 600 bytes, and only one was over 1Kb (1436 bytes).

I checked all the crit.org links from Meatball. The only link with more than one comment was to one of the pages on crit.org. For now, I would suggest using bracketed URLs like [1] for these links. If these links become more popular on Meatball, then I'll reconsider adding CritDotOrg to the InterMap. --CliffordAdams

Thank you for checking some crit.org links. Unfortunately you may have seen only the tip of the iceberg, because nearly only testpostings are listed in their recent-changes. More postings seem to reside on private servers not beeing listed. They hover over a giant network of interlinked static Websites and synchronize their growth. Perhaps it's one of the oldest collaborative community in the Web we should bridge with at least a simple prefix to encourage inter-community communication. Please have a look at http://crit.org/http://nanozine.com/ to get a glimpse. -- FridemarPache

I can never wrap my head around crit.org. What exactly am I looking for on that link? -- SunirShah

It is one entry-point into the giant annotation network of the critorg people. Since it is time-consuming to resolve their links (due to slow servers) we better forget critorg for a moment. -- FridemarPache

Where can one go to get a taste of this "giant annotation network"? Like Sunir, I'm honestly curious as to what's there. I never find much (if indeed anything!) when I visit a crit.org link. But from the way you speak of it, it sounds like I'm missing something significant. Perhaps you could elaborate more. -- anon.

Try http://crit.org/http://www.transhumanism.com/ and wait until the bottom of the page is reached, where you can see the annotation links. Go on with "Where I've been in Cyberspace since ..." and chances are that you unleash some of the network of annotated pages. Actually each link (not only annotation link) opens a new possibly annotated page.
You've been warned about the size of the network ;-) -- FridemarPache

I still think the idea behind crit.org is nifty. But as far as I can tell (as of 2006-04-24), all the annotation data seems to have been lost, the annotation software has been taken offline, and http://crit.org/ has been taken over by a completely unrelated corporation(?). Should we just give up and erase all mention of crit.org from our memory? -- DavidCary

this might be a useful one... not quite a WikiClone but the general idea's pretty friendly :)

I enjoy the content as much as the next geek, but the url format is http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A24201 () with a difference "A24201" of the url being different for each entry. If they engineer a system such that .../h2g2/god goes to the Hitchhiker's entry and so on that would make it more useful. Lots of graphical iBBC cruft but i could probably overlook that.

Yes, that's one url format at h2g2. They've already engineered a system that is more useful. The "searchstring" URL mentioned above.

I poked around these JargonFile:AngryFruitSalad sites for a bit, but I couldn't find much content. Zhurnal looks like a PIM, and the others are kind of empty right now. Am I missing something? -- SunirShah

Dunno, some of the others already on the list are "emptier". "Much content" generally depends on what you're looking for. OK, was just suggestions...

Zhurnal looks like a weblog but without the weblog (other than the way that RecentChanges is a weblog). That is, many of the individual pages read like weblog entries that never got refactored. --JohnAbbe

Comment from ^z: Yep, as JohnAbbe correctly observes, ZhurnalyWiki? is indeed simply a journal (= "zhurnal" in Russian) in Wiki form ... an experiment begun ~2001 to invite outside participation --- though that seems to happen only ~1% of the time. And as SunirShah correctly observes, it's really a (mirror of a) Wiki PIM: I write into a stand-alone personal Wiki on a laptop (old Mac iBook) at odd times ... and when I like something enough to want to keep it, and to have it available for me to elsewhere, and to share it with others, etc. --- that's when I post it to http://zhurnaly.com . My private Zhurnal PIM thus has many hundreds of unposted (maybe never-to-be-posted) fragments in it. A non-wiki archival form of the Zhurnaly is at http://zhurnaly.com --- I started it in 1999 with a trivially-modified guestbook script. Seems to work for me ... --- ^z = MarkZimmermann = z (at) his (dot) com

Ok, great! How do I add myself to the InterMap and start cooperating? My wiki is just trying to find it's WikiIdentity?, I discover Wiki through Wiki (WardsWiki ?). Basically, it's going to be a whole lot of Swedish, and a whole lot of music, humour, art, science and logic. All those are just labels - we know, that music is music. My Wiki is at http://helgo.net/simon/hornan/ but I haven't done any DNS work yet, so it's http://www.helgo.net/cgi-bin/simon/MoinMoin/wiki-moinmoin/moin.cgi/ . BestWishes?, SimonKågedal.

Now, you can add yourself to the InterMap using FileReplacement, but others will also be able to remove you. Your wiki doesn't have much on it yet, and it's in Swedish. On the other hand, you are equally free to set up your own InterMap on your site. -- SunirShah

Or to add it to InterMapTxt yourself and see what happens! --JohnAbbe

i notice that we have a lot of sites on InterMapTxt; it is nice to have a list of sites until someone makes a Wiki for listing such things (OneBigWiki), but it may also be nice to reserve InterMapTxt for sites that we actually link to here. my suggestion:

1) keep on putting rejected InterMapTxt links here; when we have OneBigWiki we can assimilate the list into that one, but until then let's keep 'em around

2) reject a bunch of links out of InterMapTxt that are there now, with this criterion; in order to survive in InterMapTxt, there has to be at least one link on Meatball using the InterWiki link; this one link, however, must be indicating a specific page within the Wiki; using it to point to the Wiki as a whole (by pointing to the start page) is not enough to qualify it (b/c in that case there is no reason not to just typing the http://). Basically, I am saying that stuff can stay in InterMapTxt if it really acts as any sort of convenience to even one person, once, but not otherwise. But I bet many of the current entries do not meet this criterion. I feel that people have been using InterMapTxt as a proxy for the OneBigWiki, that is, as a centralized listing in which to list/advertise their Wiki.

Note that I am thinking of the purpose of the InterMap to be just for MeatballWiki, not as an InterMap for everyone. This makes sense to me because I think of InterMap as defining Meatball's neighbors (like SisterSites); it is sufficient for each Wiki to define the neighbors that they need with their own InterMap, and given that, I am suspicious of centralization.

At one point I thought it might be fun to have a central place for the canonical intermap, but that was a long time ago before even FileReplacement was conceived. Then I realized that would be non-wiki like. Instead I suggested to other site administrators that they just publish their intermaps as we did with UseModWiki's (http://meatballwiki.org/intermap.txt) and then if people wanted to exchange them, that was their own perrogative. I'm opposed to schemes like Wiki:FederatedWiki that seem not only exploitive of other people's efforts, but rather complex and expensive if not doomed. If you think about it, there are many more actors creating wikis than those maintaining this central directory, although that problem hasn't stopped the OpenDirectoryProject from succeeding. The real problem with making the InterMapTxt the OneBigWiki is simply the namespace is too small. Already we have a collision between Eric's IAWiki and Erik's IAWiki (information architecture vs information anarchy). It's simply the broken DNS system all over again, and I certainly don't want to put Meatball in the centre of that crap despite the illusions of grandeur and power that entice me. (evil laugh)

Personally, I'm not opposed to deleting entries from InterMapTxt, especially the most fluffy. I'm not opposed to leaving it alone. I'm not opposed to adding to it. I think the page should be taken like any other page here, which means edits can go any way that seems like progress. Of course, I would start with Wikipedia who can't seem to stabilize their URL, thus pushing back the adoption of the latest InterMapTxt two weeks every two weeks. Grrrr... -- SunirShah

"until someone makes a Wiki for listing such things" -- the http://WikiIndex/ for listing all wiki and such things is now online.

w/r/t this note: Please only add entries that are being used in conversations. I'm not sure I get this. Why would anyone start adding InterWiki links to conversations before there's an InterWiki link defined? Seems like a chicken-and-egg problem. --EvanProdromou

In two or three weeks, the links will work. The wiki exists in the WikiNow, not in RecentChanges. Write for five years from now, not today. For us RecentChangesJunkies who read your text between entering it in the map and when it becomes live, we can manually form the links if necessary.

Ah, yes, but it takes a leap of faith that something will a) actually be added to the map eventually and b) won't be rejected. Of course, life's about leaps of faith. But still. --EvanProdromou

We're pretty good about it. As long as there is a link somewhere meaningful in the PageDatabase, we will keep it, even if it is on the TourBus. It's kind of self-filtering too as bad links get deleted through reworking, in theory, so there isn't much pressure to forcibly remove links. -- SunirShah

When I link to something that I'm not sure will go into the InterMap, I just use a labeled hyperlink, with the label in InterMap syntax. For example, [CommunityProgrammableWiki:BayleShanks]. 

 JargonFile http://sunir.org/apps/meta.pl?wiki=JargonFile&redirect=

is broke. Can't figure out a way to replace it.

Here's a (temporary?) substitute. -- EarleMartin 

 JargonFile http://downlode.org/perl/jargon-redirect.cgi?term=

Sunir, it's a long time, Ivn't been here (exluding today). I can't find the InterWikiMap? section, where I once registered the prefix "MathSongsWiki". Meanwhile the target in seedwiki has changed. So I would like to update it to: "MathSongs?" as abbreviation for the url-independent wiki, url-forwarded by "http://www.mathsongs.net". Fridemar

The page you're looking for is InterMapTxt, but don't add your prefix, because it'll get removed unless the PatternLanguage of MathSongs? is used on Meatball. As InterMapTxt says, it's not a global map for other wikis, just a convenience feature for our local setup. If you think the MathSongs? PatternLanguage can be used on MeatballWiki, use the [...] link format for now, and then we can add the prefix for convenience later. -- ChrisPurcell

Chris, thank you for the hint. I would like to deepen the discussion, with you and other wikizens. Which place do you propose? -- Fridemar

Here -- ChrisPurcell

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