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RealTimeWiki
MeatballWiki | RecentChanges | Random Page | Indices | CategoriesCan a real-time discussion forum (things like InstantMessaging among groups or InternetRelayChat) be managed like a wiki?
And, the bigger question: How? Can power be distributed to a userbase or a public group of chatters without opening it up for endless abuse? And what about the issues of permanance and public space? Are chatlogs public property or a private creation between the individuals that created it? Online chat is by its very nature ephemeral -- should effort be made to preserve all (or any) chat content?
There are a number of very critical differences between IRC and wiki that are worth noting and must be addressed if a publicly-managed chat model can be created.
- IRC is far more vulnerable and susceptible to abuse than wikis. Abuse on IRC and real-time chat settings abounds. Abuse on IRC comes in two main forms -- interpersonal abuse (things like harassment claims (justified or otherwise) -- things most folks like to refer to as "drama") and service abuse (things like flooding, spambots, channel and password theft, Denial-of-Service bots, and their ilk). Wikis have an advantage over real-time chat settings in that it is far less friendly to automated service abuse and that there is true public accountability for most interpersonal abuse that happens on a wiki, whereas non-logging chat services only have user logs -- which may or may not be forged or modified by the submitter, depending on who has what particular axe to grind. How can a publicly-managed chat model let people handle these types of situations without letting the tools for removing abusers (things to keep people off the network (on IRC, things like "autokill" and "k-lines")) be abused themselves?
- IRC help services are almost always centrailized. Users of IRC networks can locate help (usually) very quickly by joining an appropriately-labeled channel (#help on almost any IRC network is a safe bet). If power is decentralized, how will people be able to get assistance? Help services are generally considered a staple on an IRC network (though there are notable exceptions (e.g., EFnet)), and users of IRC tend to know that the people that are assigned operator privileges are (generally) people that have been endorsed in some way by the IRC network and can be trusted not to lead one asatray. How can a chat network with decentralized power provide quality help services and avoid users' misbehaving and providing bad or hurtful advice (creating an abuse situation like above)?
- IRC in nearly all contexts is a network of interconnected private spaces. There is a concept of "ownership" of names and channels within IRC networks, and channels owners are generally responsible for finding trusted individuals to staff their channels to keep rabble-rousers out. If a chat space is to be publicly managed, can people "own" channels or identities? And if so, how? Does this tie into FrontLawn?
How can these differences be overcome in a real-time chat network while maintaining usability and stability? It would be beautiful to set up a real-time chat network that is self-monitored and self-controlled -- a community that maintains itself. What would be the best way to go about doing this?
CategoryWikiTechnology CategoryChat
SubEthaEdit is particularly relevant, and in particular that BrianIngerson? managed to hack it into Kwiki. Also, there was the concept of NetworkSoftSecurity and SoftSecurityInMeatSpace. Could there be also a RealTimeSoftSecurity? (vs. the SoftSecurity we developed here for TransactionBasedCommunity)? -- SunirShah
In a sense an IRC channel is just like a wiki - everyone can say something - so what is the difference? Why you say that IRC is more vulnarable for abuse? I would agree that abusing in real time conversation seems to be more fun than abusing a wiki, the latter quickly becomes boring. But technically there is not any difference. -- ZbigniewLukasiak
On a wiki, you have ReversibleChange and therefore ForgiveAndForget. The IRC conversation is a continuous FirstReading. -- SunirShah
IRC, on the other hand, is very 'temporal' - everything that scrolls out from the screen is forgot. There are archives, but it is not relevant for discussing IRC abuses - as people who use it are mostly above the cultural level of abusers. So this cannot be the relevant difference. By the way I don't wan't here to close the discussion with some negative statement - the opposite I am quite interested in analyzing the situation. -- ZbigniewLukasiak
I am putting my comments on OnlineAbuse. -- SunirShah
meta
to be deleted once digested
I really want to talk about this here but I'm not entirely sure what the protocol is for creating new topics. I dug around on the site for about an hour, trying to figure out how to join the discussion -- in short, I think I'm doing this the right way but I'm not too sure. Please let me know if I'm misbehaving. -- BenSamples
I depersonalized it. By making the text come from TheCollective voice, it eases the ability for others to contribute to it. Also, I elided the conversational markers, since they are presumed, including invitations for editing. We experimented with them for a while, but they are all noise. Just delete them. People are encouraged to have courage, since we trust that they are responsible. But aside from those minor stylistic points, this an excellent foray onto the site! I am actually fantastically interested in developing this idea. If I only had time to meditate on it. Perhaps you can try to build that RealTimeSoftSecurity? idea based on CategorySoftSecurity? -- SunirShah
Thank you so much for the stylistic advice and assistance. The feeling of flailing about in a dark room looking for a light switch is starting to fade now -- I think I'm finally actually getting the hang of this! As for the RealTimeSoftSecurity? bit, I'm going to do my best to try to come up with it but it might not be right away -- you're not the only one with a bit of a time shortage on your hands lately. I'm still so thrilled to have found this community -- these are the kinds of things I've been wanting to talk about for years but haven't had any outlet for it at all. -- BenSamples
Some time ago I collected some stuff on CommunityWiki:CategoryIrc which you mind find useful. -- AlexSchroeder
MattisManzel 2005-10-06: Just made up RealTimeWiki on [community-wiki: collab-editing in a browser] (don't remember how CleanLinking works on meatball-wiki) and it cross linked me here. Interesting page.