Mail mattismanzel AT yahoo DOT de
Homepage http://mattismanzel.net.tc (free eBook download)
wikiwiki.de http://www.wikiwiki.de/newwiki/pmwiki.php/Wiki/MatTis (Deutsch)
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Or: If one would provide a common basic-anarchic* platform to mankind, then it would organize itself on it. The possible consequence would be decentralized global democracy by means of a global eParliament, a global eCourt of Justice, a commonly controlled executive as well as a virtual currency ? the eTerra -, which would displace all conventional currencies. This again would mean that the constant total quantity of money world-wide would become becomes publicly known. Only this would create the condition for stable world peace. A global scientific observation of the phenomenon "human behavior" based on reliable measured values would for the first time become possible. System theory, chaos theory and the research on collective intelligence would step into a bloom. The era of the war would pass, the era of collective intelligence would start. There is a line of basic-anarchic phenomena - Arpanet, Internet, Wiki (apart from the fact that Wiki has an administrator) and, - as the only phenomena using data networks, but in the end being independent of them however - flashmob. Again: Arpanet, Internet, (Wiki), Flashmob. We are working on making "Wiki" basic-anarchic. A commonly administered InterWiki has to be developed, that unites all Wikis world-wide. Poll tools for developing personal opinion and common will should be at hand for everybody there. A world government and a world currency thus. Two goals, which cause each other mutually. The platform, on which both can develop at the same time, is the Internet. The Internet predefines both goals already technically and structurally. It shows that only a basis-democratic beginning can lead to a world government. The InterWiki - as a basic-anarchic communication platform - would be set up upon the just as basic-anarchic Internet. The beginning of a functioning chain would develop. The world government creates the social connection on personal level. Since it must work in a will-creating manner, but only can develop from voluntary participation ? it is like that on the net -, you could imaging its beginning as a page on the InterWiki, where everybody can mark someone, who ? in his eyes ? deserves decoration. If one of these two is marked again by somebody, an honor tree as a tree structure develops. A small model:
A B C D E F G
Individual persons are active at the same time in different groups. These groups coordinate their activities among each other on the basis the honor tree. This is already the common world government - voluntarily, dynamically and optimal. All that?s necessary, is to permit free growth for complex structures in a by definition gravitation-free feeding area. Gravitation and thus structure result thereby automatically from union, from communication. The continuously basic-anarchic connection "Internet - InterWiki" creates such an area.
In the eTerra the total quantity of the money will be summed up in one only unit, which can neither be increased nor decreased (- this is the illness of our recent money system). This quantity can only be roughened, scaled, evaluated, or in what so ever way be adapted to the real circumstances. The value of a part then always is to be seen in its relation to the whole, while the whole finds its correspondence in the product of all factors, which determine the world economy. But isn?t like that already today ? many believe - at least theoretically? Pustekuchen! Such a determination has always been and is impossible today - the "whole" unfortunately is unknown. It will soon be possible though with a purely virtual singularly world currency with a constant total sum which is known to the public.
Open is more safe. Human consciousness will change in that sense.
* basic-anarchic - there are no "bosses" and nevertheless it works amazingly well.
Hi! I've moved your text here -- ChrisPurcell
no prob chris, but please leave the original page with the link here, as I set a bunch of links on it. -- MattisManzel
I changed the ones on FoxWiki and AndStuff. If there are more, no one else has clicked on them. -- SunirShah
Anyway, here are some suggestions for places to host your wiki projects. SeedWiki hosts free wikis for any purpose; you can get set up in less than five minutes. Or you may want to check out LionKimbro's projects; he seems to have similiar interests. Cheers! -- StephenGilbert
Thanks Steven, I'll check theese, though my dream remains to bring wikis together, this one included. -- MatisManzel?
Please do not delete. I Have set abunch of links on this one here. Just leave it like that, ok? ;-)
I am sorry about having pointed links to my new page without having known that it takes the Meatball community to agree that my page fits with your mandate, on your site, on this page. I didn't know I should. I just thought it's a wiki. Well. Does the Meatball community agree that my page fits with your mandate, on your site, on this page? How will you figure out? Is there a constitution, a common eCourt and a common eParliament to justicely judge about this question, are the poll tools to collect common opinin on the issue or are theese things still to be created? It is restrictions you give me as a welcome here, on other wikis people tell me "try xxx, he might be interested". That's what leads into a world community. Restrictions lead to restricitions. Bur maybe you do not want a world community. Do you want it? -- MattisManzel
I definitely am not the one to create it, no, what I do though is say that I feel it is possible now and offer a couple of maybe stupid proposals, yes. The creation is our part. I'll do my best to contribute. Concerning my first show here: yes, I'm a bit fed up, impatient - for a good purpose though. That's rock 'n roll. I first heard about wiki some months ago at the beginning of August. I just had to shout out my idea. I was thrilled to the bone - the hare and hedgehog-race begann. Everything seemed to be just ready, it was all just there, waiting to be connected. Wouldn't it be interesting, wouldn't it be possible that instead of three people 3000 people in 15 languages would get involved in this (and other interesting) discussions? Communities are social things, Helmut, right. Take Germany as a community, it took hundreds of years to build it. Technical aspects, like bookprinting and newspapers have decicively contributed to group building. So should wiki. The "natural" group, the one we have saved in our brains from hundreds of thousands of years is the tribe, 20, 300 people maybe, something like that. It sits deeply, but it is not the way to solve our contemporary problems. Our contemporary problem can't be solved but in one all including group. That's where my impatience comes from. InterWiki, the real one. First the content - done for now. Then the rules about who is allowed to put which garden-dwarf into whose garden. I will soon copy this crap here on my frongarden, fix the links (they aren't that many - I was just testing you ;-) and whoever wants to take his dog there is explicetely allowed to. Thanks for the interesting communication by the way. -- MattisManzel
To Mattis: Interesting that you should mention "all including". We've been thinking about RadicalInclusiveness (and its limits) these last few weeks. There is also a link to a paper by Clay Shirky on that page, where he explicitly says that the "natural" group size is something we should design for. If you look at Meatball, you'll see that the group here is not much larger than that. :) Why is that? WardsWiki is much bigger, and has many more readers and editors. So is WikiPedia. Why does it work for them? Is Clay Shirky wrong? Some also claim that WikiPedia is different because it is an encyclopedia project, some claim that WardsWiki has failed (but still keeps growing). The arguments Clay Shirky puts forward have also been discussed on Meatball, eg. MetcalfesLaw, and CommunityMayNotScale. So if you are really interested in wikis and communities, and the building of large communities, you have come to the right place. Take your time to look around, and read some of the related pages. -- AlexSchroeder
Well, the Bonobo-dance is over, thanks to all. Yes I'll read - if only my English be better. A good exercise would be to rightaway translate everything to german and continue bilingual here. Language is a group separating aspect that takes a hell of an affort to overcome. It would take me month to translate it all - so maybe later. How many do read German here by the way? cu - wiser than today -- MattisManzel
Active members? AlexSchroeder and HelmutLeitner. :)
Mark, Glad myself to have found you. The advices an insights in behaviour, when "entering a new disco" are brilliant and I intend to translate 'em to German, may I? The technical point: Are there any thoughts about a possible effect of an extended use of poll-tools like described on my page (opinion-sliders) here? Are there any technical affords in that direction? Unifying wiki, providing poll tools for everyone to set whereever wanted, permanently actualized poll results, a diagram of poll developement, a diagram of how the poll is spread, evaluation of discussions by sliders, an actual list of which discussins are evaluated highest are my recent ideas, I'm not a programmer at all by the way. Correct me please. ' like this disco here! And: FlashMob. Any thoughts about this phenomena so similar and superior to wiki (works even wihout elkectrici)-- MattisManzel
You may be interested in WikiVoting, and AnewGo, and NetConferencePlus, and [Brendan O' Connor's online deliberation links], and [Developing and Using Online Tools for Deliberative Democracy '03 seminar wiki] and [Joi Ito's emergent democracy wiki discussion].
Based on a brief experience with AnewGo, I feel that wikis are not sufficient technical infrastructure with which to make laws governing large groups. The main problems that I see are simply that it is hard for all members of a community to know when an law is proposed, and it is hard for the community to know when a sufficient proportion of people who might care have looked over the proposal. In the long term, I think wikis would be great for discussing the proposed laws, but there needs to be additional infrastructure just to at least set a common agenda. NetConferencePlus provides such an infrastructure; I think an electronic implementation of RobertsRules? would be really great. -- BayleShanks
Thanks for all the good links. It will take some time to study. I had a first english-spoken bonobo-dance on infoanarchy.org some time ago and later translated some things from the german wikiwiki.de to English and posted them there. They might be a waste of time to read, anyhow.
Though - newbie nervous - I hadn't been behaving very nicely there I expierienced extraordinary good editing by !WebFork?.
Tot ziens, fio'i! MattisManzel
As for multilingual... See MultilingualWiki. -- AlexSchroeder
All right folks, I'm supposed to lurk here for a month, and I do not feel like, as in a month my ambitions might be gone. Therefore, and not therefore only. Again: I'm not a programmer. I've had some mails with Lion and I realized what language means. It's actually the breaktrough for a WorldWiki?. The affort to make interlingual communication work will make all the rest follow. And there is a perfect reason to make it work. We will contribute from each other. What I imagine is a multilingual Wiki. When I enter it I can choose my preferred language. On every page are links to other languages. Let's say the main conversation on a topic has been in English. I'go there, I push the translate-button. I wait a little. The page shows me the original on the left and an automatic computer translation on the right. I start editing this translation. Same vice versa. Surley themes might drift apart in different langauges, but as it is so simple to translate and as translation creates a lot og good ZauBer? (magic, may I open a page on this, after less than a month of lurking?http://www.infoanarchy.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Zauber) I think it might work. What about turning meatball multilingual and make it the base for a WorldWiki?? -- MattisManzel
There is/was a desire to make Meatball multilingual, but the method is unclear as languages are UnlockedDoors, but barriers nonetheless. Note that making Meatball multilingual does not automatically imply that MeatballWiki becomes multilingual.
Totalitarian globalization is not as easy as it sounds, nor is it as desirable as you seem to think. Machine translation doesn't work either, which is why after some reconsideration, I have not put a link to Google translation on every page. (AvoidIllusion) -- SunirShah
Sunir, after the Bonobo-dance starts the struggle with the usual alpa-males, let's keep that short, please. "Totalitarian globalization" is 6/5 sylables, about the most difficult to pronounce in english and it doesn't sound easy at all, nor did I say it is easy. But it is possible. How desirable is it and how do you know that it isn't as desireable as I think it is? Poll results? On your monolingual FrontLawn wiki, not considering french, german, and and and. Sorry for my simple words, I'd just like to get things going for a good purpose. What this pupose is? Peace, worldpeace. I feel proud to have found this place, it took me a while. I'm cooprative. Maybe having put this link to Google translation would have been a good sign? Invite other languages, they make part of you. I like the multilanguage smile of http://www.wikiservice.at/esf/wiki.cgi?StartSeite. That's decent. -- MattisManzel
Sorry, Mattis. I was making a rather academic joke, which was totally stupid of me. I was joking that you were trying to take over the world with your giant wiki. You know, Total World Domination! ;) By the way, MeatballWiki is not my FrontLawn... ?? -- SunirShah
Mattis, if an important part of "Meatball" is the people contributing to it, then making the wiki multilingual will not help. The people still only speak English. You might say that there are two or three French speakers, and two or three German speakrs, but that is too small a group to do decent PeerReview. If you really want to try it, start your own wiki and feel free to create many links to Meatball (using SisterSite, InterMap, or NearLink). MeatballLanguage discusses whether Meatball should be multilingual or not. If you have any new arguments, put them there.
I also don't understand you reaction to Sunir's post. -- AlexSchroeder
Another possible use of wiki: http://www.wikiwiki.de/newwiki/pmwiki.php/Wiki/ListGfm
started WeltWiki MattisManzel
thanks Mattis. I did not understand what ZauBer? meant ? AntHere
How to do it that two people from whereever in the world can communicate with each other, without having a common language: / Wie man es anstellt, dass zwei Menschen vom beliebigen Orten auf der Erde aus miteinander kommunizieren können, ohne eine gemeinsame Sprache zu sprechen:
But if you dream of uniting them (under the same anarchistic rule :-)), this is the beginning of a long nightmare that will get you nowhere!
What makes wikis so great is that they each have their own unique flavour. So uniting them under the same roof is not at all a great idea and I believe you are wasting your time with an impracticable and unrealistic idea. Time that could otherwise be spent on better things! -- RobertAbitbol?
Most of all: Great of you four to get this going. Thanks. Every (not every, as what I have to say here is not that important) step to bring people (cooks, teachers, nurses, us etc. etc. - everybody) together is good. Thanks also for answering. Believe me that my ideas threatened and me as they maybe do threaten you. I can't help them. they're my vision. Thomas Moore had no internet, Marx didn't know wiki, we instead have and we do. And we're open to find out here, aren't we? We are flexible and dynamic. Under one roof each "wiki", each group (like Om... stuff is from ErnstGruber - just by the name Om you can tell, all the different Om...s are one group, one wiki within the big vast wikiland) could just as good keep it's own flavour - the difference is that under one roof there wouldn't be unnessesary technical problems to solve (though even that might be - temorary, at least - an advantage). I'm all open. Please be open yourself (like wiki which is quiete open). "Anarchic" is a pretty controversial word, what about using "open" instead? --MattisManzel
Wikis aren't anarchies. They are socially neutral. They can be socialist, liberalist, libertarian, anarchic, fascist, totalitarian, autocratic, bureaucratic, corporatist, or communist. MeatballWiki is an autocratic liberalism.
In other words they're open. Forget about anarchy and write your name at the end of you contributions, please. -- MattisManzel
Why should I sign my contribution?
Anarchy is a silly idea that never got off the ground anyway. It is just another silly utopia. Marxism is giving too much power to a few individuals and that is asking for abuse and trouble like experience has shown.
Power should be distributed with careful checks and balances just like it is done in all western democracies. Social-democracy is the best IMHO.
I am going to quote what the anonymous donor has written on top:
"Wikis aren't anarchies. They are socially neutral. They can be socialist, liberalist, libertarian, anarchic, fascist, totalitarian, autocratic, bureaucratic, corporatist, or communist. MeatballWiki is an autocratic liberalism."
What else should be added? He has said it all. Every wiki is different and this reflects this society's plurality and we are all happy with this. Variety is the spice of life.
Now you're an adult. See for yourself and continue on your path going nowhere. In 2-3 years from now you'll reach the conclusion I am giving you today. So just save yourself time and effort and learn how to program instead. You'd be doing something useful.
So if you have a lot of time to waste, continue with your efforts to unite all wikis under the same anarchist rule!
Don't get mistaken about my tone. I am talking to you as I would talk to a friend.
PS: I don't feel at all threatened. If I could translate my real feelings with words I would say: "look at this guy. I am sure he means well. But he is like Sancho Panza (in which novel, I forgot): he is chasing windmills, he is wasting his time with an idea that will just go nowhere. So I'd help him if I bring him back on earth".
You know society tells you that when you have a dream go for it. Sure! But this is a silly attitude that leads to irrealism. Do I sound like I am breaking your life-long dream? Sorry if I do. But believe you me, find yourself another life-long dream!. A dream you could at least attain! This one is out of reach, just impracticable.
Maybe BarnRaising wasn't the right place for it, so I copied it to FlashMob
Dreaming on GCM (Global Communication Mob) http://www.wikiwiki.de/newwiki/pmwiki.php/Wiki/GlobalCommunicationMob MattisManzel
re: TerraWiki?. Good luck! Small advice: Work hard to DevolvePower to the subcommunities. That isn't an easy thing to do, but it's easier than anything else. -- SunirShah
Mattis, I'm not sure why you moved the text from the top of PartialTranslation down as a "comment" but that was intended as DocumentMode. You probably already know this, but if you don't, the general practice is that DocumentMode goes on top and ThreadMode goes below. As we pull interesting ideas out of the discussion, we add to the document and delete the thread mode. Eventually we delete the whole ThreadMess. That's the theory anyway. The goal is to always increase clarity. -- SunirShah
Dear Sunir, what I posted is a dialog, but this dialog contains an idea to be discussed. I'll compress it into a statement or whatever you call this in English to make also you understand, that your text on PartitionalTranslation? is a comment on my and MichaelVanDam? s dialog and I will restructure. Or maybe I will not and leave the issue having said that here. I'll just do how I please and how 'I' think is best for the development of the community. Just as we all do. ;-) MattisManzel
Sure, but it wasn't meant as a comment on what you were saying, but a higher level frame for the discussion of machine-assisted translation. That is, it doesn't fit into a chronologically ordered linear or treed discussion. Discussions on a wiki are better as a reflection of the atemporal summation of edits to a single text, not necessary a thread, after all. ;) -- SunirShah
Mattis, thanks for helping on TecSpectr?. In general, we prefer a single, polite, clear message to new users in order to give them the warmest welcome possible, so I elided your addendum. I hope you don't mind. -- SunirShah
Copied my welcome to Tec that has be cacheled here to http://www.jump-right-in.com/ TecSpector?. Who do you think you are, doing this? And who do you think to be in two months? 031209 21:56 CET -- MattisManzel
I think that was to me. I mean no harm, but I have to admit I do not understand what you are saying here. What do you mean, "Who do you think you are, doing this?" What happens in two months? -- SunirShah
Mattis, I think it might be considered rude to welcome a visitor (in the role of a member, which you are not, but might well take) and point him to a different wiki. I'm sure you meant no harm, but consider I would welcome visitors at cw with "this is a bad copyleft place, better go to ..." and you will immediately see, that the normal protection of conversations on homepages can not apply. I think a homepage can only be considered protected if it is not the place of advertizing, propaganda or content that damages a community. This is thin ice we are walking on ... and this has not yet been worked out. -- HelmutLeitner
Helmut, you are right. It was no good style, sorry. Sunir, sorry. You are Sunir and you do what you think is right here. Pretty likely nothing will happen in two month, I temporarilly might have halluzinated an unrealistic rapid evolvement, I tend to whishful thinking here and now. The more frustrating a situation becomes the more I do so. Wiki pretty likely is just the same disgusting bullshit as real life, with all the same amount of authoritary people constantly and permanently blocking up a common unfoldment and my vage memory on my days feeling part of a working, an unfolding something - that was as a musician in a band, about 13 years ago, before I really started with this stupid "writing" crap - this vage memory of mine simply doesn't relate to Wiki. - If only there weren't this vage memories of mine. But I will forget, earlier or later I will. My respect again to both of you. Meatball and Gründerwiki are a proof for the fact that I'm nothing but a silly dreamer. 031210 11:45 -- MattisManzel
Something for TimeStamp, I think? I couldn't see how this tied into copyleft, precisely... --MartinHarper
It simply wasn't tied into copyleft, it just came right of my head there. Thanks for the suggestion to transfer it where it belongs - maybe TimeStamp felt to dusty to me - as it is mainly timestamped. This unravels the first disadvantage of timestamping - but is this really a disadvantage? 031210 13:12 CET -- MattisManzel
You've used CommunityWiki as a base camp to launch two FlameWars in one week. If you consider me an authority, so I am to you, but the rest of us will keep labouring on doing what we consider right. Involving newcomers in spats is not the right thing to do. -- SunirShah
Your English is good enough (my German used to be that good.... once upon a time. Sigh). However, you make quite a lot of use of metaphors and riddles and such, and that, coupled with you not being a native speaker, is often just enough to push you over the edge in terms of comprehension. Once I get to that point, well I can't correct your grammar, because I'm no longer sure what you were actually meaning to say! I thought, better to come out and say I don't have a clue what you mean than to nod my head wisely as if I was following everything you said. --MartinHarper
Thanks for your kind words about my edits. [Webfork]
Just to remind and to those who might not know: There is a good way to overview the RecentChanges on MeatBall and CommunityWiki http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/community-de/RecentNearChanges MattisManzel
Mattis, are you alright? The text you wrote on KenGribble's page is illegible, right down to the strange way you signed your name. Why did you revert my revert of WikiSpam? I'm having a hard time making sense of what you're saying/doing tonight. -- SunirShah
No idea if and if not why not, I was pointed to [Chongqed] today on s23. It's young I think. It's a good Idea to have an extra wiki about WikiSpam and the Antimateria-way of sapmmer-teasing is good too, I think. Best check and propose yourself there. cu -- MattisManzel
During human evolution we developed all sorts of send/receive information exchange channels. Sheer language content (like here exclusively transmitted via wiki), but also multiple forms of paralangue, mimic, gesticulation, tone of voice, language of clothing etc. etc. We are incredible poor and narrowbanded in our language here. Some of these boundaries might be transgressed with forthcoming technical developments, yes, but transmitting complete human paralanguage will be difficult. It was not that what I meant. I meant a para-language between the hive-mind and us, its cells. Who is online at the moment? What is he/she working on? All kind of dynamic statistics about the activity of the hive-mind. Polls. That [para-language]. Voice-recognition is another (interesting) story. -- [Mattis Manzel]
Isn't it a characteristic of paralanguage that one isn't or needn't be aware of it. Perhaps we've already developed various types of textual paralanguage without knowing it? Dig deep, spike hard. -- HelmutLeitner
Mattis, when you create links using the [http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?PageName free-form] pattern, the UseMod software is no longer able to detect pages that link to each other. Fortunately, the backlinks search is fuzzy enough that it isn't broken. But the LinkDatabase is broken by this (and all of Sunir's IndexingSchemes that make use of it). MeatballWiki has long had a tradition of avoiding FreeLinks, though I can't recall anywhere it's explicitly argued for (see FreeLink, CamelCase, LinkPattern, AccidentalLinking). I wouldn't say that you shouldn't write links the way you are. But it creates enough dissonance that I'm not sure the gain in readability is worth it. Just an observation.
A possible compromise would be to enable the [[PageName|free-form]] syntax on MeatballWiki. But again, that removes some of the ineffable magic of WikiNames.
PS: Thanks for WikiAsFire. -- ScottMoonen
I didn't mean to break any databases, sorry. Enabling the wikipedia like syntax would be a good idea, I think (didn't know that's possible). (On the long run) It would make meatball-wiki far more convenient to read and we like to be read here (on the long run), don't we? As far as the ineffable magic of camel-case is ConCerned?: I recommend to soon make a CamelCaseWiki?. I mean there are also candle-light restaurants and Tin-Lizzy clubs and it's good like that. But also electricity has advantages. That's why it is used so much. -- MattisManzel (bone-hard camel-case signature)
MattisManzel: <br> Jonas, kinda, yes, sorry. I just take a glance on meatball-wiki here and now. Neither community-wiki - where I'd been far more active - has my full attention anymore. I'm into developing the [wiki-net] up to my ears since about two years now. Thanks for your "reanimation power"! Cu