BayleShanks

If you have any comments to me that you would not like to put in the public domain, however, you can put them on this page instead.

Draft of paper

Question for everyone

I'm writing a paper about WikiGateway for submission to WikiSym (I'll probably post it for feedback sometime in the next week). Right now I am writing a section "Potential disadvantages of WikiGateway: Loss of central control over UI" which is about how, if WikiGateway enables end-users to choose their own WikiClient rather than using the wiki server's web interface, then the wiki admin (and, possibly, the community, if the admin listens to the community) loses the ability to alter individual users' behavior by making some actions difficult to do in the software.

I seem to remember a conversation here somewhere where someone said something about, when designing software for online communities, it's not always good to make every potential action as easy as possible for the user; sometimes it's better to make something more difficult for the individual for the sake of the group. I would like to cite that page, but I can't find it (I think I'll cite CommonContext, PricklyHedge, and maybe GuidePost in addition). (p.s. wherever that comment is, it should probably be moved or copied to PricklyHedge). So can anyone remember where it was? Thanks -- BayleShanks

Messages

April 24, 2003. I'm giving you a much belated BarnStar for your consistent motivation to jump in there and do something when the rest of us get too tired and too lazy. In particular, this is for StartHere?, WhyUseRealNames, and the MeatballWikiBasicsSnapshot. -- SunirShah

an old but maybe still relevant discussion on how to archive one's OpenContent contributions

MeatballWiki's copyright is incredibly open. It is less restrictive than CopyLeft, allowing each author to license their writing to the public. That also allows the system to import any form of content with the author's permission, rather than the CopyLeft which forces all content to change its licensing mode. In the world of hypertext, that's a bit silly. The problem for you is that MeatballWiki does not force CopyLeft.

If you want to create an "free" version of MeatballWiki, you'd be better to start your own. Just because FermentWiki has technical similarities to what you want, it is not culturally a good place. I'd be personally disappointed and frustrated if you supported that particular project.

I was thinking last week that for a SpaghettiWiki (FractalWiki style), you could change the copyright of whole subwikis, such as for the snapshot or for portions you want to CopyLeft. The MeatballWiki copyright is good because it is very flexible.

I still fail to understand what part of DissuadeReputation you disagree with. We'll just keep having these kinds of disputes until that is articulated. -- SunirShah

I'd love to cross-contribute my content to some other OpenContent MeatballWikiFork? if another choice existed, but I don't really have the time to start my own (well, I could start one in five minutes but no one would be there but me). Perhaps we could have one as part of the MeatBall project, though? A second wiki under an OpenContent licence to which people would be encouraged to cross-post their MeatballWiki contributions. Anyhow, since FermentWiki is OpenContent, the content there is more dissociated from the community than on wikis like this one. Specifically, should another OpenContent MeatballWikiFork? spring up later (such as one in the MeatBall project), we can just yank all the content from FermentWiki if that is what is desired. That is, FermentWiki can serve as a data repository even if it never gets going on its own. Not to minimize it's role; repositories of that sort are very important, in my view, and I certainly think that FermentWiki is providing a service to the community just by being there.

I feel that the importance of keeping content open trumps DissuadeReputation in this case. As for the question of whether I'd actually want to be active on FermentWiki, more than just storing my postings into an OpenContent archive, my memory isn't very good, and I've already forgotten the details of this case. I'd have to review it before deciding whether the sins of the person at issue were bad enough that I don't ever want to collaborate with them, or whether it's something I'll ForgiveAndForget after some more time.

-- BayleShanks

OK, another idea (Sunir's, not mine). I'll just create my own wiki "repository" with an open license and cross-post my stuff there instead of FermentWiki. Others will be welcome to post there too. The goal is not to create a MeatballWikiFork? but rather to allow the world to have a "library" of OpenContent about these topics. Later on maybe the MeatBall project can adopt this library. Eventually I'd love to see MeatBall move to an open content PageDatabase as the "main site", perhaps with stuff from these libraries as the seed, but I'm in no hurry.

FermentWiki will be totally avoided. Of course, since the content will be OpenContent, FermentWiki will be able to copy it if they want, but that doesn't mean we have to help.

-- BayleShanks

This is cool with me! It would be better, perhaps?, to create it here on usemod.com? Like, maybe http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mbopen.pl or something? That would give it more support, maybe. (lots of weasal words, I know) -- SunirShah

That would be great, thanks! As you said, that would give it a lot more support. -- BayleShanks

We'll see if anyone else objects to OpenMeatballWiki first. -- SunirShah

(some discussion moved to WikiCopyright)

Just as I deleted PersonalPrivateWiki? and PersonalPublicWiki? and moved the interesting part to WikiAsPim, I found that you link to these pages from WikiGateway. I'm sorry about this timing. Maybe the extract I prepared from those two pages and put on WikiAsPim can be moved elsewhere? -- AlexSchroeder

No big deal. I'll wait for the dust to settle, I guess, and I'll try to remember change the links later to whereever they end up.

RadicalInclusiveness

So, the best remaining alternative seems to be to openly hold that those high enough on our social hierarchy are allowed to insult those low enough, to some extent. This seems unsatisfactory, though. -- BayleShanks

I don't follow this. Why should I be allowed to drop flamebait around the wiki just because you've put me on a pedestal? This is a careful question; it is the converse of the question I have been asking too: why should I have to take abuse because you've put me on a pedestal? But it's an important inversion. One answer: I am left to defend myself, so I defend myself. Or as many are suggesting, I am left to put my foot in my mouth, so I put my foot in my mouth. Your recent "solution" didn't solve the problem; it just buried it. I am still left to defend myself except you tie my hands without tying his. So I use stronger weapons to fight both the community and the attacker. By your formulation, I conclude I am now lower in the "hierarchy." Is this the case? -- SunirShah

As I said, the "hierarchy" solution seems somewhat unsatisfactory. I think the problem of how to talk about things openly might be a "paradox" in that it seems like there would be a good solution, but there isn't.

As for the question of infering your position in the hierarchy from what you are allowed to say, I don't think that is easy to do b/c the social hierarchy is ambiguous, and even if it wasn't, consider this situation: person A was prevented from saying "a", and person B was not prevented from saying "b"; you cannot infer hierarchy from this without knowing if "b" was "a worse thing to say" than "a". But this is a subjective call, and different community members probably disagree.

So, different people will place "A" above "B" or "B" above "A" or neither, and different people will prevent A from saying "a" or B from saying "b", and for different reasons. So it can be tricky.

-- BayleShanks

It seems to me that the proper hierarchy for a wiki is this:

• CasualReader? <-- highest
• NoviceEditor?
• ExperiencedEditor?
• CommunityBuilder?
• PolicyMaker?
• Founder <-- lowest

Deference should go up the hierarchy. Everyone should do everything they can to make things interesting and worthwhile for the casual reader, and let them know that they can become editors if they want. They should try their hardest to make things easy for the novice editor. Etc., etc. The founder is a servant of all. --EvanProdromou

Only applies where the corpus is the SuperordinateGoal: ContentOverCommunity. In other places, other priorities exist. In a group of friends going to the pub, the casual evesdropper gets no deference (but no pubishment either).

What do you think of TikiWiki, Bayle? Lots of features. Is it powerful enough for what you want, or the wrong thing altogether? -- SunirShah

Thanks for the suggestion; I haven't looked into it much yet. I installed in once in order to help someone else who wanted to use it.

I'll have to look at it more. It seems easy to use, although perhaps a little cluttered. I might be worried about feature karma. I think how much I like it may depend on how modular the design is (i.e. are all those various features it has replaceabout/modifying/extendable separately?)

-- BayleShanks

to help inform your opinion, some TWiki users find it nice to install and look at but necessarily so nice to use.[1],[2] No slagging intentended; I personally haven't installed it or tried to manage a site with it but what I see on the surface doesn't interest me. -- MattWilkie

Thanks -- BayleShanks

Personally I think there is a fourth wiki problem related to the Wiki:ApathyCalcified syndrome. I have started a Wiki:SildaBeDiscussions page there and see what kind of reactions it starts.

Good luck with your organisation and facilitation tasks -- DavidLiu

In Sep05 added query: The new Wiki:TheAdjunct owner (EarleMartin) is interested in making CommunityWiki a sister site. So can you help by disclosing a URL of text list of all CW pages? Also there are desires of some of us to understand CommunityWiki a bit more (organization, recent topics, etc). Anything to share? Thanks from DavidLiu

Sure, here's the index URL: http://communitywiki.org/?action=index

I don't quite understand what you're asking for about the organization, recent topics, and "anything to share". CommunityWiki's organization is pretty easy to see, isn't it?

Information-wise, the organization starts with the page CommunityWiki:SiteMap and is also organized with category tags, and also through "see also" links and normal page links (if I ever have more time, I'd like to add a lot more organizational cross-references there, by the way).

Socially, there's a core group of people who visit fairly regularly and know each other, and some people who visit less often who we often know. Some of us interact a lot with a couple of other wikis, too, so I guess they are sort of part of our social organization.

Politically, we think the wiki runs on rough consensus among these people. With AlexSchroeder as the benevolent dictator if ever necessary, and with the safeguard that we welcome forking. In matter of fact, however, there have been very few major organizational disagreements on CommunityWiki (something that I'm sure will change with enough time) so the quality of the political structure hasn't really been tested.

In all three of these areas, this is pretty much par for the course for a wiki, as far as I can tell. And very similar to MeatBall, which you are familiar with also. So I don't see why anyone would be particularly curious?

In terms of recent topics, I can't really summarize, unfortunately, both because I don't know/don't remember, and because it would take too long. Whenever I notice something particularly interesting going on there and I have time to, I suggest a post to the [CommunityWikiBlog] so that others who don't have time to follow RecentChanges can at least keep up. Although I admit that we post there a lot less than I'd like. But still, if you want to know about topics we've recently been discussing, and you don't have time to dig through RecentChanges, I'd recommend looking at the [CommunityWikiBlog].

-- BayleShanks

Hi Bayle,

Thanks for the quick and detailed response. I have posted the http://communitywiki.org/?action=index link for EarleMartin to implement. Although I was hoping for a text (no HTML code?) link I suppose he has the wizardry to overcome any problems.

May I borrow some of your information and put it in TheAdjunct CM wiki description at http://grault.net/adjunct/index.cgi?CommunityWiki, if you do not have the time? -- DavidLiu

Hi Bayle,

the old idea of an AnnotationWiki has now evolved into an WikiAnnotationMediator. Could you give please a link to a place where programmers of a WikiAnnotationMediator could download the (modified) perl-script CritLinkMediator of KaPingYee. The inventor deserves it to be resurrected by the web2 community, after the Foresight institute ceased to offer the service some years ago and KaPingYee gave us green light to make it available to the advancement of wikis.

Just found the original script at http://zesty.ca/crit/ . Do you have your modified script yet ?-- FridemarPache

CategoryHomePage