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In a time of financial crisis the public interest looks for Google:AlternativeCurrencies. So what do you think of Google:IndividualTimeAsCurrency? The more peers are massively involved in answering questions, the more time we can save. So I invited people from our [ClipMarks:Twin].
Bext and OutsideIn? free (Creative Commons) Objects
FridemarPache: By accident the author pasted the wrong text into this wiki-page digest. It is kind of Google:AccidentalLinking of different mind-agents in his subconsciousness. It was a long night of Webwork :-).
To connect the Freudian glitch to the topic of this page, here my reasoning:
The author put a lot of time in composing and arranging this Mathsong [Bext], downloadable as a flash (swf) video. He gives it as a currency to support the growing of a SocialCommonWealth.
Other artists, musicians, mathematicians are invited to build on this CreativeCommons -object, even converting their work in money, or using it itself as IndividualTimeCurrency.
NathanielThurston: Fridemar, you may have stumbled across a very effective way to teach math with the idea of a mathsong. An old project which was in part my creation: [Outside In]
AaronPoeze: Interesting Mathsong. Never seen anything like it. You could make it it's own page I think.
FridemarPache: I am glad, if you enjoyed my song. I made it karaoke-style, such that humans could participate on the artificially synthesized song-voice, made with Harmony Assistant :-)
Fixing time a communist measure ?
AaronPoeze: Fixing time as currency is a defacto communist measure where pay rate is equated to time. The problem then is the removal of incentive to work. Namely the amount of quality work done in a given period of time. So then one spends amazing amounts of time appearing to work rather than working. It also removes incentive to skill up or educate.
FridemarPache: Overcoming ideological polarity between left and right improves both: business and (general) wellbeing. Think of all the energies that we gain, if we don't scatter them in (ideological) wars. I admit, its easier said
NathanielThurston: Aaron, the incentive to work hard is that one's foreign exchange rate is determined by the quality of one's work.
How is it helpful
AaronPoeze: We are here in the name of community, what matters more than ideology is the answer to the question "How is it helpful?"
FridemarPache: Aaron, I think it helps a lot, when done in a community. See my answer to Nathaniel, below.
FridemarPache: Nathaniel, Wow. I watched your video several times, even the longer version. Wouldn't it be great to have it as CreativeCommons object to make derivative work on it, e.g. to open up income for ExtremeOpenBusiness, creating Screensavers (Learnsavers) with cartoons and karaoke-songs, that animate comments, theorems and proofs (that may be added to them).
Two questions: In the film trailer you are listed as MasterOfIllusion?. Do you know Bill Thurston ?
NathanielThurston: I think there is a screensaver, but I'm not sure if it still works. The work was all funded by the NSF, so I think it's all at least theoretically in the public domain. We got to choose our own titles for that film -- master of illusion was partly a reference to the equation for the sphere eversion itself (which can be viewed as a map from t->R^3), which was my biggest contribution to the movie. Bill Thurston is my father.
FridemarPache: and the quality of one's work is measured by the market. That relativates IndividualTimeCurrency. However the market of the future (hopefully) is a market of abundance with a different character than the
current one, which is based on scarcity.
What about LETS
AaronPoeze: [LETS] uses a base of abundance. I used it briefly in the past but it had issues with market presence, namely not enough goods and services to buy and sell. However at a basic level it at least works. I like the idea of a time exchange rate, it would be interesting to see it in action.
FridemarPache: Aaron, thank you for this link. I found the OpenMoney? manifest, that stemmed from LETS experience, and made a ClipMarks broadcast, combined with DiiGo and Twitter.
My Time is for Sale
NathanielThurston: Aaron, my time is for sale. Would you like to buy some?
AaronPoeze, Hmm well not right now. I need to know your capabilities and I need to know what I want you to do. Also, if you're curious, my means to cover groceries is not good.
NathanielThurston: OK, thanks for considering the possibility. I was thinking more along the lines of a market speculation that my time will be eventually be worth something, and the amount does not have to be large. I've detailed my view of my [website] and work history on my website, and I hope that my interactions here have gone some way to show that there is some truth behind it. Anyone else?
FridemarPache: I open another page, because otherwise this page gets difficult for refactoring, reading, quoting, collaboration.
Thinking Out Loud
AaronPoeze: Thinking out loud on the concept of currency in its original form of time.
- LETS like in term of plentiful supply. Leads to a balance of times needed to be used or needed to be delivered.
- We then have an individual with multiple balances. Is this too messy? What if it has hundreds of amounts?
My time to deliver:
- Joan 4 hours
- Percy 17 hours
My time to collect:
- Sell Kita's 3 hours to John for 4 hours from John?
- John can then pool Kita hours to get a specific project done that Kita has valued skills in.
- How would we do exchange rate? Agreed level? A TimeMarket?? Let's put 1 hour of Jill on the market and see what offers we get? 10 minutes from Jack and 2 hours from Steve? This will be a remarkably complex market because there will be cross time trading as well.
- If it is simplified does this leads to 'money'?
- Exchange money for time in a market as well. Money then is the defacto time valuer.
- LETS has to discourage hoarding and excessive borrowing.
- Let hours to be collected and delivered sunset? In death or other ways to discourage hoarding.
- Timebanks would be a form of hoarding. Could this be positive in some way? It makes little sense to me as everyone appears to be a bank in this context. Banks exist through scarcity which a system like this lacks.
- encouraging spending and buying and less hoarding is beneficial to the economy because economy is flow. (conversations? communication?). More flow will come if people use the time.
- excessive hoarding or borrowing will discount your exchange rate in the market?
- Distance to work. Some time delivery will have a need to travel to a location this brings in a time-distance problem of fair valuation. I'd suggest real time and cost (in time equivalent) to travel.
- Have I fallen into a money thinking trap. Do we even need money?
- I go to buy a burger and pay 20 minutes. The burger flipper and service gets 7 minutes, the food items transport etc get 5 minutes the farming gets 2 minutes, the gas and electricity companies, landowner and profiteering get the rest. They all spend it further and so on. No this is a real economy
- A money-time exchange will still be important for a long time as an interface with the world who still uses money as primary currency.
- How is this better/worse than a money economy?
- Understanding of value is more inherent due to time being what is more significant.
- Theft and corruption has less value as hoarding is discouraged.
- What else does this mean?
- GoodsAreTime? – yes this makes sense
- ServicesAreTime? – yes sometimes directly but would also include overheads to deliver such services
- TimeIsMoney – Who hasn't heard this one before?
- Visiting friends, family etc is giving away your wealth?
- Holidays, camping etc is spending time on yourself?
- Time cards instead of credit cards, time market instead of money market, currency is truly currency and is truly current.
- New quotes, I take a bunch of money related quotes taken directly from a Google search and rexamine them;
- “I never completed high school and I am very rich and very successful.” equivalent to the same thing this is a general quote and here we talk about being rich in time. Is being rich hoarding? Or merely moving more time in a given.. time.
- “If you want to feel rich, just count the things you have that money can't buy” equivalent to “If you want to feel rich, just count the things you have that time can't buy” - is there much time cannot buy? Yes health depending on the problem and our advances.
- “Money is like a sixth sense - and you can't make use of the other five without it” equivalent to “Time is like a sixth sense - and you can't make use of the other five without it” - quite true.
- “Time is more valuable than money. You can get more money, but you cannot get more time.” - well this cuts to the core of our understanding doesn't it?
- “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you.” equivalent to “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make time your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you.” - I am not sure about this one. Pursuing the things you love doing is making time the means rather than the goal.
- “Money never made a man happy yet, nor will it. The more a man has, the more he wants. Instead of filling a vacuum, it makes one.” equivalent to “Time never made a man happy yet, nor will it. The more a man has, the more he wants. Instead of filling a vacuum, it makes one.” - Is this about wanting to live forever? Time doesn't make one happy it's how we use it or even more how we perceive it that matters
- “Money is not the most important thing in the world. Love is. Fortunately, I love money.” equivalent to “Time is not the most important thing in the world. Love is. Fortunately, I love time.” - I guess this works.
- “Whoever said money can't buy happiness simply didn't know where to go shopping.” equivalent to “Whoever said time can't buy happiness simply didn't know where to go shopping.” - meh
- “Formal education will make you a living; self-education will make you a fortune.” no equivalent, is self education undervalued? Could this concept improve that?
- “So you think that money is the root of all evil. Have you ever asked what is the root of all money?” equivalent to “So you think that time is the root of all evil. Have you ever asked what is the root of all time?” Alternately we can use the original quote and answer it with time being the root of all evil. Quite silly but then the original was as well. What is the root of all time? Space? Existence?
Well that was fun Are some of these memes? Are we making better memes?
NathanielThurston: Aaron, that was brilliant. I think it will take some time to digest.
An alternative Social Currency that converts to real dollars
FridemarPache: Just detected TwollarsAsCurrency.
<-> [DiiGo] [ClipMarks]