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Have to work on possibilities, not impossibilities, and be aware of practicalities.

Sep 05 Can WikiSym resolve Wiki:HowWikiWorks at C2 with EnemyFromWithin? (dramatization) and without EditWar?

If people do not believe Wiki:CollaborationStartsWithaQuestion, then Wiki:CollaborationLeadsToDiscouragement can be a result.

In early childhood, children play independently (but together in the same room). Is this collaboration? Has wiki outgrown this? -- dl

Sep 05 Is WikiPedia "handle" worth the trouble?

I would like to get a "handle" on WikiPedia to have short sharing of information / views regarding IT topics (e.g. CRM) I only know how to look up pages there. Is there a simple and effective mechanism for me to do this over there?

end July 05 note

Absent for a few weeks and suddenly find CostinCozianu entangled in a row here with Sunir. I hope it does not finish with a MindWipe? as it is bad for a wiki.

Previously I noted CC / RK feud, and I think I know enough about CC online behavior now to suggest he probably "DID" mean no malice, though his tone is hard to take.

Personally I would love to see a page on "Christian White Male" stay, though I am at the moment having lots of personal problems with Christian rightist movements that behave differently from "early christian" attitude as I understand.

I tend to think CC probably did personally categorize Indians as white, even though skin color differences make it hard to think that way in practice.

I hope there can be more tolerance shown to CC, but I am not involved in the sentiments so it is easy for me to think that way.

Wiki:NeoWiki by RK

Purpose is not to bring conflicts discussions here. But I won't mind if the great minds here to visit there to look at what the "great ego" is up to. Comments about that topic on C2 only pls

MindWipe?: prevention and alternatives

(reserved for later summarization based on input from community)

Forward: I have no desire of sparing (or draw parties here to spar) with personalities from a different online community. However I do think it is topical to alert the community around me about events that might have immediate/future relevance. And yes there are different cultural factors (heritage) and social dynamics (forces), but there are enough similarities so it is not gossip for its own sake.

CostinCozianu is having a feud with RK (recently banned here) at C2. Now, after 5 years, he is declaring that he will be doing a WikiMindWipe of his own work in a few days time, unless... (not spelt out). 9May05

A determined ex-wiki lover, especially a highly skilled one, can do lots of damages in a mindwipe.

Suppose this person created lots of unsigned material, and others where he has "significantly refactored". In a subsequent mindwipe he could use a script to delete or deface a whole range of pages others have taken for granted over the years. Block his IP? He can find new ones, or paid for DDOS type of attacks (through zoombie PCs) cheaply. Instigate human readable edit code? As long as he can read it from some IP, he can "instruct" the scripts to adjust to the edit code. There are more sophisticated defenses, but on a wiki like C2 it is forcing the hand of the "minimalist owner" and he may invoke the simplest thing of "stopping the wiki" for a while. Sophisticated mechanisms also tend to "raise the barrier" for new users and diminish WikiNature?.

Both sides of the dispute claim the other side has been a significant problem for the entire community, both claimed they have been attacked by LynchMob aiming for cheapshots. Unfortunately both are right on both counts. The sad thing is also that both sides had lots of potential as valuable contributors.

I thought "Multiple Point of View" (MPOV) had always been the strength of C2. But the accommodation of the multiple viewpoints had been achieved only after lots of people got sickened by "yet another power struggle".

MPOV Progress: Does it have to be paid by new civil wars?

Mind wipes are normal, frequent, and healthy. Once the community has destroyed trust with an individual, it's best to part ways. Discussions about mind wipes are needlessly painfully dramatic (cf. GoodBye), forment resentment, and usually result in more abuse being heaped on the aggrieved, which makes things worse. He is not likely to delete (a lot of) unsigned material unless you push him to punish you. His desire for his pain to be validated is the main problem. End that swiftly (be honest; don't lay blame), and let the mind wipe proceed if it must. They are never as bad you think they will be. Check out http://c2.com/cgi/fullSearch?search=CostinCozianu to see what is likely to go. -- SunirShah

I'm going to be snide, but really it's what I'm good at: the more drawn out and dramatic one makes their exit, the more the observers, myself included, want to make the comment about not letting the door hit one in the ass. The last thing people are going to remember is a destructive egotistic rampage, and no one is going to sit there and plead for mercy and forbearance, so by all means, I suggest he simply get it over with. Thankfully the wiki has history so any deletion of unattributed material or "defactoring" will simply be reverted. Your words are your own, but your organizational edits belong to the community. Mindwipes are just fine -- I've done it myself on a MOO I spent hundreds of hours building for -- but making threats of a mindwipe is just plain asinine. --ChuckAdams

I think mindwipes are generally not fine, because they reduce value and weaken the community. It's a painful declaration of bankruptcy of all people involved. It is much better to take a TimeOut?. Then you have the chance to relax, come back months or years later and build on what you've left. Threats are always a problem. -- HelmutLeitner

If I become a WikiNuisance, blame PhlIp. He keep making references to C2 in XP newsgroups :).

My normal online home is Wiki:DavidLiu and in Mar05 (still hope to be here Mar06) I spent more than my usual time in digging up MeatBall pages. It is sort of quieter here too :)

English (and communications in general) is not my forte. But I hope there is enough patience and tolerance so ideas (not words) can be shared between myself and others. <insert Eleanor Rooselvelt quote here>

My current interests on wiki is Wiki:SocialDynamics for purposes of seeking work in Wiki:ChangeManagement. At the moment, I am trying to convince people to Wiki:KeepPeopleGainfullyEmployed so they can implement Wiki:ChangeYourOrganization option 2.

Also trying out concept of non-pattern/CompScience? but IT / management / life related wiki. See Wiki:WikiCities. Want to add your name for fun? :) -- 6 Apr05

DavidLiuCtwoLocker? is waiting to be physically deleted.

My homepage rants... guaranteed to iritate (or amuse, or cause involuntary yawning) readers.

You are asking for it if you read on


My experiences at C2 has not diminished my views that GoodnessExistsSomehow?, sure there are AssumeGoodFaithLimitations?, but often WeCanBacktrackDamages?. And has to be vigilant about The Wiki:CureWorseThanTheDisease problem.

Re: WeCanBacktrackDamages?. I meant in a lot of cases, parties at odds with each other have common viewpoints. For example, eventually even Hundred-Year-Wars end. Both sides equally exhausted and realize no point in firing the last cannon ball.

Started the Wiki:BeyondWarAndCasualties page, portions of it advocated slowing down RecentChanges, on assumption instant messaging not good for collaboration anyway. Ears wide open to constructive criticisms. -- dl

To: JackWaugh (8wp38tv02 at sneakemail daht com / my rev16)Your query response moved to your homepage

Hi Bayle,

Your request of C2 page creation done, and I have taken the liberty to correct a minor error in the link to your homepage here. I have taken away the extra ":" at the end. Also note that is no such thing as a SubscribedPages?. If you want, create it on MeatBall (if http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiSymWorkshops unavailable for edit) again and I'll copy it over. Cheers ? dl

Thank you David! -- BayleShanks

David, have you intermittently been unable to read c2 wiki pages recently, even when you have the same ip address? by popl-cache-4.server.ntli.net

Last week and right now it is fine. But yes, even with fixed IP behind a corporate firewall, I was more often blocked even from seeing pages. Other internet sites including this one has no problems

To/from Helmut

David, to answer your summary-question: I don't think that a discussion of C2 here will help the C2 community process. -- HelmutLeitner

Helmut I have to go home now. I just asked Santa Claus on CtwoBusinessValue?. Part of the problem for me is the departure (reduced presence) of people I wished stayed. See Wiki:BeyondWarAndCasualties. Have a good day -- DavidLiu

David, I'm sorry that you are frustrated so deeply, that you even fear to hope for a better future. I'm indebted to Ward and C2, therefore I would help you and C2. Please, help me. If we don't try and give our best, why should others? -- HelmutLeitner

Helmut "?frustrated so deeply?" I was saying the Santa Claus stuff "tongue-in-cheek". But would be nice if there is a community that fit well, and stay that way. Have to work on possibilities, not impossibilities -- dl

To Helmut, a few days later, it appears Sunir has a different perception of Ward towards C2, not as a child in terms of inseparable bond, based on my interpretation of his comments in CtwoCommentary. -- dl 19 Apr

To/from Sunir

re: Wiki:CtwoBusinessValue. David, the essential problem with c2 is that the participants aren't professionals uniformly interested in the same SuperordinateGoal, much as they were in the Patterns phase and the Extreme Programming phase. Many of the problems we have experienced lately on Meatball stem from the same problems, as amateurs are riding the coattails of the buzzword 'wiki', interfering with serious practioners. Order is only self-organizing if the participants are wholly implicated in the outcomes of their activity. Otherwise, they can be as crazy as they want with no consequence to them. Indeed, the only people who can win in an environment without actual consequences are people who have overwhelming amounts of time and energy to pour into conflicts, and those people are definitely not professionals who are too busy doing to spend time fighting for attention. -- SunirShah

Sunir thanks for your sharp observation and I'll need to think about it (going to work now), and probably copy to C2 for comments. I was also trying to pin down Kris Johnson on his "implosion" comment but did not succeed. See http://www.blogger.com/publish-comment.do?blogID=6254179&postID=111328030494491790&r=ok

BTW the C2 problems make an excellent topic for the Wiki Sym that you people are attending. I am sure you creative and energetic folks welcome challenges.

Why did you suggest delete homepages on C2 as a "simplest thing" solution? -- dl

It's the simplest solution to eliminate the ongoing problem of updating homepages in the face of the edit codeword. Shed liabilities. -- SunirShah

I found it hard to take your comment seriously. The simplest solution would obviously be to turn off the wiki, which is reductio ad absurdum; being simplest is not necessarily relevant. In any case, homepages are actually not the primary c2 issue by any means. -- DougMerritt

? DM I am confused. Are are taking to me, or Sunir who floated the suggestion? In either case lets continue in the CtwoCommentary which is better than my homepage. I will create example 4 crosstalk there. BTW Doug are you locked out from C2 in the past hour at all? thx -- dl

MeatBall is a SisterSite of c2 -- all you need to do is delete your homepage on c2, maintain one here, and people going to it on c2 will be linked to the version here. No edit codeword hoops to jump through. --ChuckAdams

Hey, David, in response to your comment on CommunityWiki:BayleShanks:

I'm assuming you're refering to the text at FermentWiki:BayleShanks. Actually, the last real edits to that page were in October 2003; the Jan 2005 last modified date is just from spamming and spam removal. I don't go there much anymore. As noted on that page, I'm into OpenContent copyright licenses, and in Oct 2003 FermentWiki was the only OpenContent wiki I knew about that covered the kind of topics I like. Now, however, there is also OpenMeatballWiki and CommunityWiki, so there's at least 3 to choose from.

I haven't had time to truly keep up with this wiki and CommunityWiki over the past year or two (but then, I suspect no one else is able to keep up either, so I don't feel worried..), so my view may be a bit dated. But you ask about learning about community and communication at more of a beginner level than at MeatballWiki. First of all, I'm a little confused because you seem to me like you know a thing or two about communities and communication, and in addition I know that you've had some wiki experience and you've been helping out a lot in the midst of the confusion at C2. So I wouldn't call you a "beginner" at all. But, I'll answer your question as you asked it anyhow.

I feel that MeatballWiki tries to be readable by and helpful for beginners; so if something is confusing, just say so and ask for clarification --- not only will you be learning, but you'll be doing a service to the community by pointing out what's unclear (I suppose it's possible that you've already tried that and someone told you to bug off b/c MeatballWiki is not for beginners; as I said, I haven't been keeping up, so I would have missed it; but I would be very very surprised if that happened here).

In general, though, I'm personally aware of three wikis which deal with the topics of community and communication; MeatballWiki, CommunityWiki, and FermentWiki. There might be some others that I don't know about. I don't know much about FermentWiki, but I think it hasn't quite achieved critical mass yet. Between CommunityWiki and MeatballWiki, MeatballWiki is older and has more and better content than either of the others (not to diss CommunityWiki; for example, MeatballWiki's SoftSecurity pages are excellent, but then they've had more time to be reviewed and edited by more people than any pages on CommunityWiki), so if you want to read about community and about wiki approaches to community, MeatballWiki is where I'd start.

However, as you already know, it's fun and educational to become and active member of a wiki, in addition to mainly just reading it. I would take a look at MeatballWiki and CommunityWiki and "join" whichever ones you feel most comfortable. Of course, become involved in more than one of them if you please. The page CommunityWiki:DifferencesBetweenMeatballWikiAndCommunityWiki may be interesting.

I can't imagine that I've told you anything that you don't already know, (or suggested something that you haven't already done) so sorry if I'm not much help :)

-- BayleShanks

Bayle nothing happened. And I will tell you there will be "future nothing happened" :). I almost started to call myself WikiBaby here. Is there a list of banned people, MeatBall timeline and "visitor in xxx" type pages? Why OpenMeatBall? filled with spam? -- David


Thanks for the link to APL pages. If you find a "practically free" good APL that works in Windows XP, have some database limit (e.g. ODBC), and hookup to common GUI layer, I would be extra grateful. Thx again -- DL

Open privacy paper link in WebOfTrustModeration broken. found in webarchive though. Anyone knows of a current link?

More importantly, is that reference represent a majority accepted viewpoint, for people interested in TrustMetrics?? -- dl


22June Thoughts on MinimalistLaw

not put in that page as there are lots of good comments by other parties to digest already.

My thoughts are: 1 - if not minimalist, then lots of maintenance efforts required when society changes. (e.g. "should pick up horse dung" law would be odd in an age without horse drawn carriages). 2- if not minimalist, laws can actually be at odds with each other, because after all we are all human, make error and interpret things differently.

homepage Propaganda

Please remind other MeatBall regulars to "play nice" at other online communities (e.g. C2 wiki). Because if they do not, the "reputation" of MeatBall as a whole suffers in a different domain, without compensating benefits.

I am however not trying to bring conflict from outside MeatBall to here. I am a strong proponent of Wiki:MakeRoomForAllViewpoints and would like to think I behave that way myself.


-- Hans

David, can you email me or vice versa?

To those of you who still believe in CommunityBuilding, wiki in particular, keep up with the good work -- dl 29Jun07



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