This isn't his homepage, but it is.
One could say that I was making an exception for Tarquin by creating a CategoryHomePage and you'd be half right, but everything isn't all that clearcut. Don't forget the second purpose of CategoryHomePage is to help the scripts out. And also UseRealNamesCases is too big to edit. -- SunirShah
I don't like UseRealNames largely because it is a DressCode, and, as such, StyleOverContent?. However, I agree with the spirit behind it: to create an enclave of MeatSpace on the web. I wonder if URN is the best way to achieve this, or the only way.
well how about "because I would like to"?
Goddammit, yes. Why can't people just admit that? That's the motivation for all these arguments, but to date you are the first pseudonymous person to say this. I know I've suggested that reason many times before, and I've been surprised that no one has admitted to it. I think the case for pseudonyms has been hurt by being so disappointing when it comes to being emotionally honest, which I think is a fundamental quality of MeatballWiki's efforts.
it pretty much boils down to you guys having a rod in your ass over this issue
Yeah, no kidding, but every time we start a new flame war, positions just get reinforced. -- SunirShah
Thanks for calling me a headcase and a demigod, Sunir ... Nice work on the refactoring. Not sure what I think about having a home page here though ....
You asked, "Now Meatball is meant to be a community, not a business relationship, no?"
Maybe, but it's more like a community of practice. While I do not speak for everyone, for me Meatball is a business relationship as it reflects directly on my professional life. It is part of my professional life. A place of business is also a community. That doesn't mean it is stuffed shirts, but it does require a certain higher level of decorum than hanging out with your drinking buddies. Most discussion forums on the Internet are like hanging our with your drinking buddies. I really don't look at Meatball like that, and I think it would be a terrible waste of our time if it became just another chat forum.
I prefer that Meatball is a place where interested parties can work with other interested parties, so we have a simple convention to signal that this isn't a place where "anything goes." A community, yes, but not society at large. -- SunirShah
Sorry, doesn't wash as a UseRealNames argument. I didn't need a uniform at school to "instill a serious work atmosphere", and I don't need a convention for it here. Maybe other people switch roles according to their clothing, much like parrots that shut up when a cover is placed on the cage - I like to think I'm capable of make a conscious choice in such matters.
Sunir, Meatball may be part of your professional life, and that's fine. But please don't forget that some of us here are volunteers. I'm still going by what it says on the front page, MeatballWiki: "a community of communities: an intercommunity or metacommunity" - t
Hey, just because we live in a PostModern age, doesn't mean we have to care. And what do you mean your school had a "serious work atmosphere?" Did they drug you or beat you or something? ;) -- SunirShah
Drat, this "don't post immediately" thing really has something going for it -- I should probably have given it a few hours to organize my response to Sunir. - t
By the way, the whole issue that this policy butts against some core values of the people who are likely to contribute to MeatballWiki, and is consequently shooing them away, has been bothering me for a long time. This issue has been very difficult because it is a value conflict, and not just between MeatballWiki and the Legions of Kryptonauts or the common Internet culture, but also between some of our core values as well (AssumeGoodFaith, PrincipleOfFirstTrust, DefendAgainstParanoia, etc.). Compounding the problem is that it has actually had a fairly high utility on the surface of attracting people who are amenable to our goals and excluding those who are against our goals. (Meatball is far from neutral.) However, the ongoing conflict has been a drain, a disruption, and a blackeye. So, I find it very hard to find another solution. I am still hoping for a more three dimensional response or a solution more attenuated to the concerns of our various CommunitySolutions and CommunityExpectations; i.e. considerate of TheCollective. So, while the idea that the "customer is always right" is important to attract new contributors, every businessperson knows that the customer is only second fiddle next to yourself. And still MeatballWiki continues to grow at about 50% a year, which is probably about as much as we can take, so I've been asking myself is it really important to change, except to my guilty conscience? Of course, I may give up, but that doesn't mean you have to. You wouldn't be Tarquin if you did. ;) -- SunirShah
Here are a quick find off of OneBigWiki (a very incomplete OneBigWiki if I might add) of FrenchLanguageWikis:
One can also mention
um, my French is next to nil, so I apologize for mistakes and TarQuin, I think a French Tour would be fab! Best, MarkDilley
I'm really pissed off with whoever removed my name & comment. I was paying Sunir a compliment, and I get a slap in the face for it. Thanks, guys. You are really welcoming to people who don't share all of your views. -- TarQuin.
I don't think I have. But I find the bahaviour of the person who removed my name unconscionably rude. Surely that is against the spirit of MeatBall?
I don't think it was meant as rude. He could have left it, thereby deciding that UseRealNames was moot, which wouldn't have happened without discussion. He could have deleted your entire statement, which would have devalued what you wrote. He could have anonymized it and left a note on your namepage, but apparently we have decided that clear personal communication is childish. [Why, I don't understand, when it is better than having these miscommunications. Just start again, Sunir, you've ousted the only person who objected.]
Just to remind you of what was done and said:
Revision 20 . . December 12, 2003 4:30 am by MartinHarper [UseRealNames discussion -> TarQuin] Revision 19 . . December 11, 2003 6:32 pm by StephenGilbert [But this is nothing new...] Revision 18 . . December 11, 2003 4:36 pm by TarQuin Revision 17 . . December 11, 2003 4:17 pm by 22.214.171.124 [as requested: use real names; sorry, Tarquin, but you know how it is.] <-- this was me Revision 16 . . December 11, 2003 3:45 pm by TarQuin [if you're going to wipe my penname, wipe my entire comment] Revision 15 . . December 11, 2003 12:56 pm by SunirShah Revision 14 . . December 11, 2003 11:34 am by MartinHarper [anon non-real name (umm, we're still doing that, right?)] Revision 13 . . December 11, 2003 11:30 am by TarQuin
I erased your comment because you asked for it as such. I didn't mean anything offensive by it. I assumed after two years (*) you were comfortable with anonymization after acknowledgment, but now I guess no longer?
(*) I don't understand this part about "welcoming" though... to me I see you as having been here longer than many others?? Do you really feel unwelcomed? I hoped we'd had been friendly. -- SunirShah
Ahh yes, I should have left a message here, shouldn't I? Someone who understands the issues better than I could write down this little nugget of CommunityLore. I wasn't trying to be rude, though it seems I achieved it nonetheless. --MartinHarper
I'm still struggling with UseRealNames. I like it, and I hate it. Like, because it's one of the factors that gives MeatballWiki its unique character. I really enjoy working and communicating over the Internet without the usual mix of "kjab434" and "CyberMaNcEr?". Hate, because it causes so much trouble with people who would really like to be here but also really want to use a PenName. My heart sinks whenever I see a newcommer start editing under a pseudonym, because I know the "welcome" message that has to be delivered.
I've worked with TarQuin and AntHere on WikiPedia, and they are as genuine and trustworthy as anyone here on MeatballWiki using real names (ditto for Martin, aka MyRedDice). But I don't want to start making exceptions for people, because it establishes a type of two-tiered social certification system where some are deemed "favoured" and permited to use pseudonyms, while others must bow to the rules. So, for me, it's all or nothing: everyone must use real names, or pseudonyms can be used by anyone who wants to.
We're not any closer to resolving this, are we? -- StephenGilbert
No, and the more I read, the more complex the problem becomes. cf. UseRealNamesForWomen vs. the psychological papers which claim extreme dissociation of your online life from your real life is a psychosis (which UseRealNames excludes). What is the better answer? I just don't know. -- SunirShah
In GruenderWiki? we prefer and advocate real names but don't get religious about them. We go towards a MemberWiki and only real authentified persons can be full voting members and publish articles under privileged conditions. -- HelmutLeitner
I'm sorry, I can't parse this.
Do you mean StartAgain? Or explain it again? There have been many objectors to RealNames. Until AntHere, there has been only one argument, "because I want to," which I accept as valid, but that must be balanced against "we don't want to," which should also be accepted as valid and prior. There's no pretentiousness about this. Here we UseRealNames, but we're cool PenNames are used elsewhere on the Internet. This isn't to say we are better than everywhere, we just feel better about this place with real names. If others have a hard time accepting this place as its own thing, or we have a hard time letting go of people, that's when the fighting begins. Tarquin has never been like that, so we should not cause him trouble. This is important. This is why we continue to discuss this with each other, and this is partially why this is a CategoryHomePage--it's only important to the IndexingSchemes as long as TarQuin has signed messages out there.
We are having this discussion because we like Tarquin, but it's hard to find the better answer: a tolerant middle ground for UseRealNames that satisfices as many people as possible, whilst remaining best suitable to our goals. Being excessively militant about it only works when we are trying to DissuadeReputation, but we aren't trying to do that with Tarquin. This is a bit of CommunityLore, sadly, and it speaks to my next pattern: LandMines. -- SunirShah
What still bugs me about UseRealNames is that I could have made up a name like AndrewHenderson?. I would been accepted here -- but I would have been lying. Instead, I chose to be honest and am made to feel unwelcome. So I am left concluding that to get on in this community, I should have been dishonest. -- TarQuin
Are you only objecting on a philosophical ground; i.e. "I don't like this community because it forces me to be dishonest?" I couldn't verify your real name in person either, you realize, just on the face of it. So, what is the difference? That's an interesting question worth exploring, and so we are. -- SunirShah
Sunir, I don't know how your French is, but below Anthere says that four of the people she trusts completely on the Fr:Wikipedia are people whose RealNames she does not know. I like MeatBall because I like what it has to say. I find it insightful and useful in my dealings with communities, online of off. But I do not see Meatball in the light of WikiAsGame (if it were a game, why give "the name you give on a resume"?). I see it as WikiAsCollaborativeDocument?, WikiAsBuildingSite?, and even WikiAsConversation?, until things are cleaned up into DocumentMode. (Though your lates fashion to mark ANY new page that is not posted as a ready-made essay as "deletable" irks me, I find it Un-Wiki.) One of my points has always been that actions count more than appearances. If Anthere writes that she trusts me, it is not because I have conformed to a SillyRule?, but it is because we have worked together over time. On the other hand, I appreciate that communities need to make SnapJudgement?s, simply because otherwise it would take too long to acclimatize to new members. UseRealNames is MeatBall's method of making this judgement: to decide how to treat a newcomer. But RealNames are just a pattern. "Steven Smith" fits it, but "Teh l33tmaster" does not. A gaming forum would demand conformity to a different pattern: "Teh l33tmaster" would fit in, but "Steven Smith" would not. That was my point: if I had concocted a suitable pattern, I would have been accepted. So I am beginning to think that for all its posturing, meatball is not much different from other communities in CyberSpace. If you really want to be considered as MeatSpace (and I think it is a worthy objective), take something of substance from MeatSpace, rather than a superficial SillyRule?. It would mean extending the period before trust is granted to a newcomer: this in itself would act as a test of entry. In MeatSpace, people who do not conform to DressCodes are eventually accepted on the strength of their character and their actions.
We've had this discussion before. Three points. As an online community leader, you have a lot of people who will vouch for your identity. It is rare for an online community leader to not know some of his or her membership personally. Conversely, while you will claim that this would also help us trust pseudonymous authors--and that is true--the policy does help eliminate those who are not leaders, but are trying to be disconnected from others. You are an exception in that you have hidden your real name at least from your own community, if not everywhere, and it is difficult to connect your real name to your pseudonym. (though there is WikiWiki, I remind you)
Second, this still doesn't address the point about not being able to identify false names in person either. This is very important. The difference is that people exist in a fabric of a social network. It is possible to leave this network as con men and the witness protection program does to create false identities (e.g. TombStoning). We are not interested in disconnected people as we are talking about community building. It's much harder to do this with PenNames that exist only online as you would need some sort of online reputation system, whereas a RealName carries with it connotations of connectedness from your entire life Wiki:ForFree.
Third, the policy is not meant to be about rejecting people, although it has served very usefully and credibly in that regard. The policy was a positive statement about the communal spirit found in spaces where people use their real names over those places that did not. We've had a lot of direct attacks on this policy of all policies, not in a constructive way, but with aims to destroy this community. This has made us more hard line. You'll notice a shift in rhetoric before the NameWithheld?, PrinceOfStories?, etc. flame wars, when the running theme before was to avoid the unprofessional, chirlish "masquerade ball" feeling of a pseudonymous space, versus now where it is "rejecting CryptoNauts" and forming "snap judgments" as you say. I would actually like to ForgiveAndForget by undoing the damage done.
We have accepted you. You're well known, have a reputation, a CategoryHomePage, a UserName, and so on. Our negotiated limit is that we would like it if you did not sign messages in the main corpus because this serves as a GuidePost to others to use PenNames; moreover, it's impossible to remember that "TarQuin" is the exception to the rule. Please do not blame other people for not understanding your your relationship to Meatball as it is merely CommunityLore. If someone sees a pseudonym, they will delete it. That's just how it is. We are slowly sorting out new solutions as we go, mostly thanks to your contributions. -- SunirShah
I understand completely, which is why I don't push you about it. I spent the last three hours talking about this, re: blogs & wikis, in particular MeatballWiki ''in class'. I am pesonally grappling with what damage I have wrought to my own life and sense of identity by taking this path. All my facets of identity are collapsing into one, one by one. At this rate, soon I won't have a private life and that will drive me insane--in public. I don't know if I will resurrect my older diaries after they get deleted (if people would stop touching them). I need to do some recession, but at the same time I need to increase my social network to accomplish a PoliticalAction. It's about time I did a mind wipe off of WikiWiki too, but I'm in denial.
It bothers me that I have not successfully conveyed that you're actually more vulnerable to attack the more you use your pseudonym simply because people care less about hurting pseudonyms, but the more reputation you have the more likely someone will attack you. I will tease that idea out more in the future, I suppose. -- SunirShah
Your impending IdentityCollapse? does not sound pleasant. I see what you mean about attack. I supposed those of us with a high barrier between our PrivateLife? and public life see the outer parts as being jettisonable in extreme cases, (to mix metaphors badly). I think we've reacted in different ways to similar concerns: most of your public writing is on wikis, where you can go back and mind wipe or even vanish. I don't mind posting to mailing lists, forums, WikiPedia - places where once it's written, it's written in stone - because using a penname gives me the ability to detach those from myself. I don't treat "tarquin" as a SockPuppet, just another nickname: what I write and sign "tarquin" is me, I'm just using a nickname to give myself distance from my private life -- so it would be quite a blow to me if it ever did come to a jettison situation. (I guess I'm in denial about that.) What I say online has a permanence unlike speech in MeatSpace, which for someone prone to occasional hotheadedness isn't ideal.
By the way, I finally got round to working out my version of banana slicing usemod. If you have a moment, see UseMod:BananaSlicing and tell me it's completely insane :) - t
One that springs to mind is the fuss I made of FrenchWikipedia's Christmas logo. I was pretty pissed off and someone had put a fair amount of work into it. - t
Well, this wiki burns its unpleasant history like a good Stalinist site. We could pull ourselves out of the WebArchive? too. I don't think, however, people will look back on your Christmas spat and think much of it after it blows over. People disagree all the time. It's more important to show what you did.
I have a lot of crap on Usenet I don't want hanging around, but my solution was to create a more popular project to PhonyFlood Google with my constructed faux divinity. Now no one will know what a complete bastard I am. -- SunirShah
I don't think using my real name would have made much difference. After things had cooled down I went back and tried to explain myself more calmly, and that too is something I would do no matter what name I was using. That's a good analysis of the differences between fr: and en:. What can be done to make the fr: a bit more serious? - t
re: pen names and cryptonauts
Hmm.. to be clear, looking through the version history of PluralisticSystem, you responded to "MeatBall is a PluralisticSystem, at least to some extent." with "But it does not accept PenNames?!" which later MartinHarper changed to "MeatBall is a PluralisticSystem, at least to some extent. It's fair to say that the views of "cryptonauts" are not very well represented," thereby ContextSwizzling your statement about pen names, which when I fixed the syntax and grammar, became more apparent. -- SunirShah
Je passais juste par ici...pour la première fois depuis au moins 15 jours peut être. Tu peux deviner pourquoi. Pourquoi se soucier de construire une communauté, lorsque l'on sent que l'on en fait pas partie ou bien que les désaccords sont trop profonds ? Combien d'heures passées sur fr ?
Déjà trois jours que je suis partie. Je regarde encore un peu les modifications récentes, mais sommes toutes...je tiens le choc :-) Je n'ai pas vu beaucoup d'édit de FvdP?, de toi même ou de Looxix ou d'Alvaro. 4 personnes en qui j'ai totalement confiance, et pourtant 4 personnes dont j'ignore parfaitement le nom :-)
Je me suis mise une date limite minimale au 15 janvier avant d'envisager un quelconque retour. Tiens moi au courant s'il te plait, si il arrivait quelque chose de "très important" d'ici la cependant (genre, si certains souhaitaient mettre a jour la page définissant la neutralité de poins de vue, en indiquant que les souhaits de l'Académie Française ne sont pas un point de vue, mais une obligation à respecter :-)).
A ce propos, un commentaire. Si la traduction de pov en pdv se justifie entierement; il est par contre une mauvaise idée de remplacer npov par pdvn. Car pdvn s inteprete par "Un point de vue neutre". Ce qui est une aberration. La neutralité de point de vue est précisemment une collection de points de vue, réunissant l'essentiel de ce qui est perçu ou cru par les gens. Alors que pdvn semble exprimer un idéal comme étant UN point de vue neutre : ce qui risque grandement d etre confondu avec le point de vue moyen. Le point de vue moyen n'est pas la neutralité de point de vue, ce n est qu un pov parmi d autres.
Donc il faudrait dire pdv et npdv de préférence pour une traduction plus exacte. Je pense qu'il ne faut surtout pas traduire npov par pdvn. C'est se mettre volontairement sur une pente savonneuse. C'est promouvoir la notion de point de vue "correct". Et franchement, le "correct" est déjà suffisemment pesant sur fr, pour ne pas le mettre en avant.
Si la neutralité de point de vue est désormais interprétée comme devant être le point de vue "correct", je ne reviendrais plus jamais.
Amicalement. Je ne signe pas, Sunir m a demande d eviter de signer mes commentaires.
Bonne chance pour la discussion en cours ici :-) Certains sont accueillant, d autres non.
I may have subverted your point somewhat on RightToVanish. Hopefully not. Is it strong enough to say that UseRealNames hinders the RightToVanish, or should we say that it actually breaks it?
Juste de passage pour qlq heures. Je te laisse un mot ici, puisque WP est en panne :-)
Regarde, en faisant des petites recherches, je suis tombée sur cela (voir juillet 2003). La présentation de Wikipédia est...euh...un peu plate. Cela me donne envie de leur refaire un petit topo, avec lien vers des articles africains...reste à trouver des articles intéressants... http://www.edusud.org/actu/breves/archives_breves.html
J'avais fait une tentative vers www.afrik.com, non couronnée de succes malheureusement.
Bon, j ai réfléchi. Je vais essayer de reprendre la page sur la npov (ou npdv) sur fr, pour en faire un ensemble de pages à thème sur le sujet. Une page générique, courte, définissant le jargon, posant le npov comme un principe fondateur, qlq citations...Une autre page détaillée, essayant de décrire les pov classiques que l'on peut trouver (religieux, politique, éthique, scientifique, nationaliste, académique, linguistique...), une page sur les alternatives (point de vue multiple, point de vue neutre, naturel...), une page de recommandation. Enfin bref, essayer de bien isoler les différents aspects. J'aimerais assez citer des exemples concrets de conflits de neutralité, ainsi que citer des personnes.
J'essayerais de faire cela sur meta de préférences. Si tu peux m'aider...ce serait cool. En particulier pour t'inspirer sur ta perception de l'influence du point de vue français et de ce que peux t'inspirer meatball.
[I don't know what the situation is at all except what's here in English.] You always call someone on the ultimatum. If they want to fork, tell them to go for it, and then ignore them. Why bother arguing with people who are wasting your time? If they want to put you under thumb, cut off their thumb. Spend your time instead focusing on doing the right thing and making your project better. That's the best you can do. If someone disagrees with what you think is right, the only effective attitude is BarnRaising to find the better solution, not threatening. -- SunirShah
I hesitate to write in french in an english speaking place :-). Yes, basically Sunir, that is what I decided to do : let the threats go on, and not bother. I think that is a lot of talk and moving the air :-)
Anthere is right, it's like threatening divorce at the slightest problem. I have tried talking to them, but often to no avail. My objections to their Christmas logo is a good example: I put it to them that as WP is meant to be an international project, the logo wasn't a good idea. It represented WP as being of a particular culture -- that may be true of most of our participants, but it should be the face WP presents to the public. They did not seem to understand my points, and said "it's just a bit of fun". I have decided to avoid arguments, and instead do my best to fulfill my role as Ambassador, by keeping up crosstalk between the Fr and international mailing lists. -- tarquin
Tarquin, the winner of the month ! From Aoineko (2 year old contributor). Lovely :-)
who am I ??? lol. Non, ça va. En gros. Je n'arrive pas bien à me concentrer ces jours ci. J'ai même perdu l'envie de regarder fr:...grave...je suis en train de désintoxiquer un poumon :-))) Il est possible que les pauvres performances du serveur de ces derniers jours y soient pour qlq chose...ou bien...il faut que je recommence une série d'articles pour me fixer un but. La, je chipote comme un papillon :-) Je ne te vois pas bcp ces temps ci sur irc.
--- Hi TarQuin,
Thanks for the feedback on WikiInterchangeFormat. I would really appreciate it if you have time to expand on what looked to be a counter argument. (I might not agree, or I might, but either way it'll force me to think about issues I won't have considered yet! or expand on them better if I have already ) -- MichaelSamuels
At first glance, we have the UseRealNames approach. More specifically, SunirShah's approach to use his real name everywhere. As he once said, this can lead to IdentityCollapse?, feeling one no longer has any boundaries between the different aspects of one's life, because on the Net, everything connects.
Then there is my approach. I have different nicknames for different spheres of activity. These are not identities, it's just a simple way of creating distance between different social circles.
Now these seem like polar opposites. But what if they are not? Could we envisage a situation where people use nicknames, but as markers rather than concealment? Where some of you would know my real name and perhaps some of my other nicknames, but I would trust you not to go invading other aspects of my life?
Just a thought... I don't know if anyone reads this page, but should anyone find it an interesting thought, feel free to take the above and make a proper page out of it. -- tarquin
Tarquin, thanks a million for the sample template!!! Because of that I've been able to get valid XHTML on my wiki!!! Thanks!!! (You can see the modified version at http://126.96.36.199:82/)