[Home]TourBusDiscussion

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Historical start:
This WikiWiki TourBus page is for collaboration among wiki hosts and users to use TourBus and the tours to explain and promote WikiWiki development and community. -- JohnDeBruyn, Jul 1, 2001

John, I think your idea is great, but nevertheless I didn't grok it when I read it it a year ago. Now I begin to understand what it's all about. A bus system is able to connect the various systems of the wiki world using a simple paradigm that everyone will understand. We need such a system. Why not just use normal links or InterWikiLinks? Because people won't find their way efficiently - that's part of the reason why public transportation exists. Some time ago there were perhaps not enough wikis to justify the effort. But now there is a growing number of wikis and they have the constant need to connect and to be aware of their neighbourhood. -- HelmutLeitner

Small Wikis

There is a place for tour bus stops at small wikis such as http://kristopherjohnson.net/wiki/TourBusStop by KrisJohnson. Just be careful when adding them to the bus lines that you meet the expectations people on the tour will have.

It is very important to give smaller wikis a chance and a way to join the bus system. At the same time the bus system must support the needs of the old and big communities as well. But the primary goal must be to make it an attractive and efficient transportation system for the passengers and to help the whole wiki community to develop.

Therefore, prepare to set up bus tours through the wikis for small audiences.

Image Copyright

It's linked to at the WikiPedia bus stop, and that will cause people to think that it's covered by the GNU Free Documentation License.

HelmutLeitner has not decided upon this, therefore the default rule applies: It is copyrighted by its author, whoever that is.

Tour Bus Central

need for:

I would like to see, possibly at the bottom of the TourBusStop page, links to other bus lines.
I'd like it if there were a pointer to the TourBusMap at each bus stop, in order to give me an "aerial view".
The idea behind this, for me, is that the newbie, can always get back to home. or a common starting point, as I remember just jumping links all over the place. - - md
There is a need for all TourBusStop pages to point back to a central point of the network. But I don't think we should create another wiki page for that. MeatBall:TourBusStop can act as the central station.

naming the page

MeatBall:TourBusStop is suggested as the place, other suggestions are MainBusTerminal?, MainTerminal?, TourBusCentral?, TourBusRoutes? or TourBusLines?

in reference to adding TourBusStop pages to other wikis: IMHO I think it would be ok to add a TourBusStop to wiki's that we have not gotten permission, IF the TourBusStop is a pointer to Tour Bus Central, which is currently MeatBall:TourBusStop. I agree that we should seek permission about being put on an actual tour and discussion about location with in a tour. I feel that not pointing to the Tour Bus Central seems to me un-Wiki like. -- md use TourBusStopTemplate

discussion on visualization moved to TourBusMapDiscussion

IMHO all the organizational stuff here around shows that it is not that easy to make and to grow a big wiki-bus-system. And IMHO it's not "The Wiki-Way" if there is a central BusManagement. The normal way a wiki grows is more "anarchic" than planning routes by a central authority. On the other side a good bus system needs some organisation. It is not a good idea to let everyone with his own 20/1 mini-wiki to enter his BusStop? into the GREAT-WIKI-LINE by himself.

IMHO the GWCT is only for large communities having tours or the potential for tours. IMHO no-one should just link himself in anywhere. We expect cooperation of the hosts and the BusManagement to find solutions that are good for everybody. BTW I like your other ideas. E. g. LugKr could also become part of a GERMAN-LINUX-UG-CIRCLE around LinuxWiki. -- hl

I thought about it and want to explain my idea: A central authority (the BusManagement) works on the big Bus-Lines that become the backbone of the Bus-System. On every TourBusStop, (like in real live), there is a big place which is good illuminated and has big signs and maps (meaning a clear design on top of the Page) for the big lines. Down on the TourBusStop page is free, dusty place for everyone who wants to stop his own little car and drives to one of the small wild villages around the big wiki-communities. I like to call this a ShuttleBus? or a WikiTaxi?. So for example our little LugKr Wiki can be connected to the bigger Stations on the TourBusMap without making the main line too long. Every ShuttleBus? may use one line of text to describe the destination. So LugKr can join the GERMAN WIKI LINE, where it belongs to but may also decide to have a direct ShuttleBus? from/to other Linux-Wikis or other local communities around. - ThomasBayen

(In short: If a TourBus is not a WebRing, a ShuttleBus? - Station is not a Linklist. ;-)

I like the idea. We could also have "local bus companies", conforming to the original design, but not under control of the central BusManagement (the MOIN-MOIN-TOUR is one candidate for this concept, imo). Nevertheless I think we should work on a consistent set of methaphors, so that all TourBus'es work similar (same for ShuttleBus?'es, WikiTaxi?'s etc.). -- ip

ShuttleBus? -- you mean like BranchLines??

Aren't sure what a branch line is. A ShuttleBus? could be a direct connection between two strongly interrelated wikis.

Perhaps the BusManagement should only set up the framework like Bus-Numbers. Then every line should have a BusDriver? (or a BusDriverTeam?, or a BusCompany?) that has to decide the route of this bus. This way a LocalBusCompany? can be organized the same way than the "big ones" and can later easy be integrated in the numbering system.

If we talk about consistent methaphors: I myself prefer ShuttleBus? over WikiTaxi? and BusCompany? over BusDriver?. (Let's first sleep about names like MoinMoinBusCompany?, GermanBusCompany? or DeutscheWikiBusGesellschaft?) -- ThomasBayen

What functions should these companies have? The TourBus is a metaphor, not more. The TourBus is not a commercial system, no-one buys tickets. There will never be mass-transportation (because if a passenger has found his way, he will soon set a bookmark). -- hl

These Companies are the sum of all people who make the bis line working. It means "the persons who are responsible for this tour". You may call it BusDriver?, but I like more a metapher that represents a group (a team) of people. -- ThomasBayen

A Word Of Caution - keep it small and simple

Please do not forget to rework these pages as you write. Did you count the number of pages related to the tour bus concept? We should not need more than four or five on this wiki. Everything else is confusing. We are using the tour bus metaphor for a reason -- step on, click through various wikis, see the sights. That's it. The same metaphor that is used for complex software or porn web sites. "Take A Tour!" -- AlexSchroeder

The confusion arising because of the confusing Bus- and TourBus- prefixes has been alleviated. The confusion arising because of too many terms (driver, management, family ties or neighbourhood, shuttles) has been reduced as well. Yet the goal has still not been reached: A small number of pages and a small number of terms. Concise instructions. The basic idea is nice -- link wikis together, have nice introduction pages on each wiki, maybe draw a map of the bus lines (good for the humor factor). Everything else should go. -- AlexSchroeder

Proposal by AlexSchroeder:

from TourBus page:

TourBus and WebRings

TourBuses are a lot like WebRings, and since many people are familiar with the concept under that name, we should mention it somehow.

Mhh, I don't feel this similarity. Though technically they are certainly related, for me they differ strongly in philosophy... -- ip

A bus is a much simpler paradigm, so why should we refer to a more complex one? -- hl

The WebRing is a viable idea for static web pages. since video addict culture is one of the steps to the wiki, I agree, we should mention it somehow. I am thinking of a WikiRing?, aka TourBus explanation in a Tour called WhatIsWikiTourBusStop?? I firmly think the wiki bus tour shows off wiki in needed ways. --md

If you want to explain something to a newbie (or even to me), don't split the discussion onto twenty pages. Just describe what you are doing on TourBus. Besides, the name WhatIsWikiTourBusStop is not very good. You only need the WhatIs prefix for one word concepts, which are very rare. Think of the sentence as "What is a TourBusStop?" -- SunirShah

When I understood what TourBus was about, I thought "Oh! a WebRing for wikis!" - it is very similar. -- StephanieBooth

So Stephanie, when did you understand what TourBus was about? Can we simply say that the TourBusStop system is a WebRing for wikis? Or do some people not know what a WebRing is? As far as having a TourBusStop at the WhatIsAWiki? page, outline in TourBusStop style, with three major points about wikis and online culture, I think that is a solid idea. As for the discussion being splintered off into twenty directions, I assume you are meaning CategoryBus? MarkDilley

thoughts on what to say when placing this on other wiki's - one's that aren't very active yet. . .

If you prefer not to participate in this wiki event, please delete the page.

If you do, great! Fill in this page, come on over to Tour Bus Stop Addin Point and you are encouraged to join MeatBall:BusManagement. We will work on getting you linked up in a Tour!

Established smaller wikis

Hi George, saw you active on recent changes and wanted to invite you to put up a TourBusStop on this wiki.

Check out the whole meatball project at: Meatball:HowToForTourBusConnections

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?HowToForTourBusConnections

Best, MarkDilley

And the point would be? I took a look and there doesn't seem to be much in common with the Alberg Wiki and those on the Tour Bus, other than the fact that this is a MoinMoin instance. Maybe you can give me the sales pitch. -- GeorgeDinwiddie

Ahh, the sales pitch, minus the selling. I am a fan of wiki, and trying to figure out how to get more people to understand the concept and uses. One of the ways to do that is to create different "Tours" for wikis. Obviously yours wouldn't go into a tour with a bunch of computer language wikis (well maybe a Moin Moin Tour?), but it may go into a tour with the new Kayak wiki. Or it might fit into a design tour, etc. etc. How is that for a sales pitch? Or contact me and we can chat by phone? http://markdilley.2ya.com

from priorities page:

Currently I feel a bit driven by the need get the TourBus going and driven by the growing demand. -- HelmutLeitner

I will maintain here on this page a list of work priorities and planned decisions. Please discuss everything, give me feedback and intervene if I do or intend to do any things you don't like.

This list will contain a growing list of thing to do (you may of course add to it). This list is meant to be a priority list and we should try to work top-down. I will try to work top-down. If you think me to work too slow (I will do about 2x30 min per day), help me and we will progress at a faster pace.

General:

from how to connect:

An official template is not necessary, or even desirable, due to differences in the syntax and graphical style of various wikis. But some consistency would be useful for passengers so that they develop a consistent idea of what a bus stop is and how to use it effectively. Well. . .TourBusStopTemplate, is something that I think will help new editors to get their TourBusStop up, if not useful for that, then for placing on wikis to point to the project. - MarkDilley

moved from bus driver:

The BusDriver? is a suggested role within the TourBus-system.

There may be procedures necessary:

These procedures will be developed when needed.

Effects:

from WikiPassport:

Interestingly, my first mental association upon seeing WikiPassport was not Passport® as in Hotmail® rather passport as in traveling papers. I figured a WikiPassport would be something you would be asked to show before boarding the Wiki TourBus. [needs to be connected to the sprawling CategoryBus] me thinks it can just be added to the TourBusDiscussion

Would multiple citizenship be a feature of participating wikis?

from TourBus

BusRouteDiscussion -- ideas and organization of new and existing tours
BusRouteDiscussionArchive -- some clues about why it is how it is

About the BusManagement

Original post that got this conversation moving after MarkDilley refractored/condensed many Tour Bus Project pages:

I think it's important to remember that the wiki community has never needed an authority nor a vote to accomplish any collective project. MeatballWiki has never required a vote either. The TourBus project has yet to encounter any justification for such a bureaucracy. I propose that the BusManagement not only be deleted but disbanded as unnecessary complication. We all know how to raise barns here; we certainly don't need to ignore the wiki way now. -- SunirShah

. . . moved from MarkDilley

So Sunir says disband management. a theory that I do enjoy most of the time. But what if there are conflicts? Is this making decisions based on fear? for a wiki you generally have one editor or GodKing, but for a wiki bus system, do you want it to have the potential for anarchy? Does a bus management team help in any ways? -- MarkDilley

What GodKing? Wikis work together through BarnRaising. If there are conflicts, we resolve them. (cf. ConflictResolution) I think you underestimate the wiki community. We are strong because we support each other. -- SunirShah --

Sunir, please take no offense, I put these quick thoughts on this page, cuz I have been up all night working on this. . I agree completely with your thoughts at TourBusPriorities?. As for refractoring. . . I did my first attempt a few days ago with OneBigWiki, and then tonight with this project. I appreciate your comments on slashing more, but I am still learning this stuff, so I would rather do it slowly.. .for now. in regards to GodKing, didn't mean to raise your hair. :-) I just am not completely sure how a GodKing affects stability, that's all. I mean, you are GodKing, how ever miniscule I have seen it, it is true. now what does it mean to not have a person or body of people who play that role? I don't know, just processing it. I can't help but feel that your comment above is way off base. I have intense trust in wiki and people doing it. I agree with you completly. I am not sure why you think I am underestimating this community. I see bus managent as possibly a bus co-operative, yet another way to build the community. (in fact there is reference to editors not getting along, which page was that. . :-) Anyway, hope your well, talk soon. -- MarkDilley

I sense the entire TourBus project has driven off the road of wiki; that it's missing synthesis with the wiki way. Fundamentally, I think it's missing patience. If you can't act as if you believe the TourBus will be here forever, then you've already admitted to its failure. It's the lack of patience that is leading to the "nova" of pages and bureaucracy. If you're not careful, you might "super nova"--burn out--before the year is over.

If I were you, humble refactorer, I'd delete everything except for the TourBusMap and the TourBusStop, and then rewrite TourBus on less than two scrolled pages of text. Don't forget that the wiki community already has many if not all of the conventions necessary to manage the project. All you need is the content, the idea. Also don't forget that anything you delete that's actually important will be resurrected by your PeerReviewers?. Act in GoodFaith, and have faith in their GoodFaith. Be merciless. -- SunirShah

I think it's important to remember that the wiki community has never needed an authority nor a vote to accomplish any collective project. MeatballWiki has never required a vote either. The TourBus project has yet to encounter any justification for such a bureaucracy. I propose that the BusManagement not only be deleted but disbanded as unnecessary complication. We all know how to raise barns here; we certainly don't need to ignore the wiki way now. -- SunirShah

Sunir, in my humble opinion, there is no bureaucracy. The bus management is in place in case of problems. Those hosts (and writers) have expressed their interest, they are expected to observe the process, they will interfere if they feel the need to and would be asked explicitely by e-mail if we do not find our way. If you dislike the TourBus idea as a whole (and there are indications that you do), then tell us to move out. But don't refactor the TourBus with a negative attitude. I think it's the right thing at the right time in the right place, but this is your wiki and I'm quite aware that we (contributors to the TourBus) are guests here. -- HelmutLeitner

Helmut, would you like to step back for a second. Do you seriously think I (of all people) am being hostile? I haven't refactored anything, have I? What happened to AssumeGoodFaith?

Ok, let's step back. I'm also hurt, because you constantly nag at the TourBus, add "proposals for deletion", and now speak of "...ignoring wiki way...". This is pretty strong. I still havn't heard a positive word about the TourBus from you. -- um, Helmut, that was me. . .MarkDilley, sorry for not making that clearer

I think you described my fundamental objection to the management. "The bus management is in place in case of problems." There are no problems, at least certainly none that requires a body that we've never needed before in the entire history of wikis. Don't be afraid of problems. We must DefendAgainstParanoia.

You misunderstand the role of the BusManagement (more on this below).

What is the simplest solution to building a TourBus? These are all wikis and all publically editable. Just build it. Outline it on the TourBusMap. When someone edits it, PeerReview it. If you disagree, change it. Or discuss it. That's how everything else works on a wiki. Why not use a wiki?

I don't quite understand what you suggest here. A different system? In a separate wiki? Well then build it, but don't ask me to do it for you.

I'm disappointed that your attitude is "shut up or we'll leave." In particular, I feel that it's because I (Sunir) am criticizing (and perhaps criticizing you, Helmut)--not necessarily any other critic, like Alex for instance.

No, that's not correct. I only offer this, because I am still waiting for your first positive sentence towards the TourBus. I would very much like to discuss all issues, but I don't feel entitled under the constant page count pressure you put on it.

You know, when I created Meatball I chose to not care whether people build their projects here or not, no matter whether I agree with them or not. An example, do you think I agree with VeniVidiVoti? Of course not, because VotingIsEvil, but I support the effort, so I have helped Emmanuel many times.

This is MeatballWiki. We're all BarnRaising together.

However, although I cannot hold you here, I am holding me here. I feel like participating on MeatballWiki, even if I don't agree with you. It particularly bothers me that you are shutting me down without even humouring what I'm saying. Why did you raise the bar (by threatening to leave) so quickly? -- SunirShah

My offer is not a threat. I would only work for a leave, if you declare to prefer this or if I feel that I can't preserve the vision of the TourBus as a social system here.

To suggest the deletion of BusManagement is an attack to this social idea. Because it is two thing at the same time. First it extends the idea of "anyone may contribute that may push the edit-button" to an "anyone may contribute who declares to care", and it is a symbol for my commitment to not control the TourBus but to put it under common control from the first day. The list of hosts shows that both things have been understood and taken seriously. Only you decided to take "management" literally. -- HelmutLeitner

Fair enough. I'll sleep on this and get back to you. -- SunirShah

Thoughts from Sunir, compiled by MarkDilley ;

I think you underestimate the wiki community - I thought that I synthesised what everyone was saying and refractored it into fewer pages. Being a newbie, I didn't cut much, if at all, and merely condensed stuff. Thought that the refractoring could happen at that level.
So that leads me to the second comment. Fundamentally, I think it's missing patience - How can the TourBus project be lacking patience, I feel like the thing is taking forever to build. :-)
If you can't act as if you believe the TourBus will be here forever, then you've already admitted to its failure - I have no idea where this came from, but it was not nice.
I don't understand your comment about ''I'm disappointed that your attitude is "shut up or we'll leave." I don't think that was being said at all, and I think that Helmut would only be able to speak for himself anyways.
And the last comment, ' In particular, I feel that it's because I (Sunir) am criticizing (and perhaps criticizing you, Helmut)--not necessarily any other critic, like Alex for instance. speaks to me of the "GodKing status issue that I was originally grappling with. Does a cross wiki project need a BusManagement? (as in Helmut's definition) Certainly, wanted or not, a wiki editor's voice is stronger - percieved or not. (btw, I believe it was Alex's thoughts on shallow pages that started me thinking about refractoring/condensing)
What happened to AssumeGoodFaith? My point exactly. instead I get told that I underestimate the wiki community and that the project is un-wiki. whoa, slow down here.

As I see it, the main problem here is not going to go away. This is faceless, voiceless communication that is difficult, at best to communicate with. There are differing levels of wiki experience that are felt strongly by at least the participants themselves, if not by others.

So, where to go from here. BarnRaising has been tossed around quite a bit, and I feel like I have been apart of that. As far as the TourBus project - Sunir and others are distressed by the volume of pages, we have worked on getting that down and simplified. But as for BarnRaising this MeatBall community. I suggest we give it 24 hours from now 10/5/2 3:00pm EST to think before we write more. My two cents. In Solidarity, MarkDilley

I've thought about this for a few days now, and this is what I feel. I was away or preparing to leave to Europe for most of the TourBus renaissance. I didn't even have time to write in my diary, let alone read MeatballWiki during my vacation. I hope you understand that I could not read the TourBus pages very deeply. This meant that all I saw was the growth of the TourBus pages, a very superficial perspective on the project. This leads to very superficial opinions about it. In particular, I discouraged creating large numbers of pages in a short period of time. This shouldn't be too surprising as I've pressured other people to keep things slow before.

Over time, I saw the pages grow instead of being maintained. I was growing more frustrated, and that lead to more pressure to cut the pages back, sometimes more harshly than I ought to, I have to admit. The way I saw it, the pages were becoming too complex and too confusing, and that could only lead to more pages and more confusion unless some action was taken to stem the tide. To me, it's not the number of pages, but the clarity that matters.

The question why did it frustrate me? did not escape me. As I have said before, I "lead" by my hands, heart, and mind. When travelling, I'm cut off from my hands because I don't have time to do anything. That means I'm left relying on others to do what I want, an always tenuous position if I can't convince or demonstrate what I mean. It wasn't my place to do anything when I was mostly absent. That's the NegligentLeader? antipattern again. Also, I neglected my own personal philosophy of having patience. (I'm aware of the hyprocrisy.)

Now that I have returned (albeit briefly), I have had time to read the pages. I had (and have) some major objections, especially to the BusManagement. However, I thought that the TourBusRefactoring? would be an excellent time to "object." I should have known better. Refactoring is just that; it's not supposed to change what's meant, just make it clearer. It's without opinion. I think my earlier frustration got in the way. Of course, there are no excuses, only problems and solutions.

So now, instead, I think I'll wait for the refactoring to finish. Then I'll discuss it with you, not pressure you. I should never have pushed my opinion like a heavy. It wasn't my place.

As for saying something specifically good about the project, I'll wait for the refactoring to finish. Right now, I'm mostly confused. As I said, I'm stuck with superficial opinions. Superficially, I know that it's a good thing to connect the wiki community together, especially if it continues to reverse the Wiki gravitation effect. But for something substational, I'll get back to you. Maybe we'll continue to disagree again, but hopefully we'll disagree in that good happy way we like to disagree with each other around here. -- SunirShah

Sunir, although a appreciate your "humble host" position, I would prefer heated discussion. If you step back waiting for a refactoring, you will surely be disappointed. It's also no help for the TourBus and we can't afford not to ask you for your help. The TourBus is meant as an institution that is independent of persons and systems. I've tried to implant this, but we should find better ways to guarantee this. The TourBus has an initial philosophy, but surely it is far from being perfect. There are many things to do, many thing to elaborate. So, Sunir, please help the TourBus.

I noted only recently, when Alex refactored ForkingOfOnlineCommunities, how far you have developed the art of refactoring. But this kind of refactoring (as you seem to expect us to do) is optimized towards the production of content pages. On the contrary most of the TourBus pages aren't content pages, they are constructed to support a process, to make the work for me and contributors easy. A refactoring that would make it harder to enhance the system or to respond efficiently to requests would be unacceptable. Its like software optimization: you can't optimize for size, speed and structure at the same time. Refactoring wants it as a consensus content optimized for the reader, I want it supporting an efficient development process (this means: small pages, serving a single purpose, requests easy to recognize on RecentChanges).

Also, if you want - at some point, lets say in a year or two - judge the TourBus, you couldn't do based on looking at the pages here alone. The real TourBus is out there consisting of all the remote TourBusStop pages. Look at them, suggest improvements for them, judge them. And the real success of the TourBus will only be seen slowly, when founders will routinely start to think and care about their neighbourhood (just as they now think about their mission or license).

By the way, I think part of the emotional page count problem is the lack of page deletion here. I implemented it more than a year ago and it works very well. Only a user with UserName may delete. Only small pages (<64 bytes) may be deleted. A "delete page" link is only rendered when conditions are met (bars robots). Any deletion may be undone because the revision archive is kept. Nothing could be safer and easier. -- HelmutLeitner

For PageDeletion, see DeletedPage.

Here's an opinion of a relative newcomer to the wiki world. I did some active work for the TourBus when it was first revived. Coming back to it now, I can't make any sense of the mass of pages. I tried a little refactoring before I left (such as moving the content of TourBusPhilosophy? to TourBus), but it seems that was undone. It seems that the philosophy of the TourBus should be explained on the page about the TourBus; why have a separate page?

This isn't a matter of reducing page count for its own sake. It's about reducing unnecessary complexity without compromising the spirit of the idea. If someone like me, who was active at the beginning but then took a TourBus vacation, can't get his head around the project now, how can a new person be expected to? Helmut, if the idea behind all of the TourBus pages is to make it easier for people wanting to build the TourBus system, I'm sorry to say that they have failed in my case.

Finally, I haven't understood the need for BusManagement, much like I don't see why WikiPedia needs the WikiPedia:Wikipedia_Militia. One of the beautiful thing about wikis is that no one needs to be assigned a job. People do work they're interested in, forming informal groups along the way. Things like BusManagement and the Wikipedia Militia seem redundant to me. -- StephenGilbert

Should WhyClublet be removed? It's fishbowled, kinda. While, sure, this is non-wiki, a more practical problem it prevents people from managing the TourBus system. -- SunirShah

Is anyone monitoring the TourBusChanges?? -- SunirShah

I watch the TourBusChanges? for changes on the Eclectic Tour Bus route. As for WhyClub?.let - I think it should be removed from the TourBus system, until it becomes a public wiki again. -- my $.02 -- MarkDilley

Do we know if there is much traffic through the tour bus system? - Best, MarkDilley

Meatball gets a handful a day, mostly through c2. While that sounds like a little, it's not that bad considering that the TourBus isn't front and centre on these wikis. And once more tours get constructed, we can build a nice hypermap of wikis across the Internet, and that could be useful enough to be given more prominence on the cooperating wikis. If you search on the Internet, others are referring to it as a selected compilation of good example wikis. -- SunirShah

Renegade Tours

Most of the tours seem to go through Meatball or C2, and all of them are on the Meatball bus list. But who's to say they have to?

Go forth, rebellious tour bus drivers, and start your own lines!

Do you want to do it in the secret? Do you want to use the TourBus logo? It's an old bus and the logo is free! Do you want a RENEGADE-WIKI-TOUR? Do you want a TourBus connection for a new renegade branch? Do you need our help?

What the heck is up with [susning.nu's TourBus stop]? It looks like an edit war...

I first came here a few years ago and thought "hmm, this is a good idea". Now, I'm not so sure.

I'm looking at what Sunir wrote about the issue of management (the crucial parts of HowToForTourBusConnections) and finding it applies as strongly today as it did years ago. The WebRing concept has the same big issue - it just doesn't fit that well to the concept of people making collective decisions through independent actions. There's a dependency on drivers, and on getting consensus before taking action. Joining takes months, when it should take a minute.

This may all just be sour grapes, as I returned nine months after an application to find the wiki I support has been refused on a tour because it's not "grand" enough. I guess this means it's not *old* enough, or not on a sufficiently worthy topic. It's certainly a lot larger and more active than most currently on the tour, including Meatball itself.

But I'm not too bitter, as I'm kinda ambivalent about joining now. I think the WikiNode idea is closer to the wiki ideal, in that it's simply up to the to determine the sites that they feel are relevant, and if those sites agree, they can always return the link. But even that project seems to have stalled (due to the fatal loss of the central mode - which is an issue with TourBusMap, too).

Maybe we should just accept that Google knows best. That's certainly where we get the vast majority of our traffic from.

It also strikes me that TourBusManagement? are just out of touch with the way people are actually using wikis nowadays, and the role-models we're looking to. When I think of "grand" wikis, I do think of Wikipedia - but Wookieepedia, Uncyclopedia and Memory Alpha also spring to mind. First and foremost, they are successful at attracting and retaining both an audience and editors. Honestly, older sites like Meatball seem to dissuade both for the sake of continuity. In the context of wikis, that doesn't seem "grand" so much as it does "timid".

It's your wiki, and your bus system. But I think it misses the point if you focus on communities willing to spend significant time applying for a stop vs. placing stops where people actually want to go. If the drivers actively sought out sites to match a particular topic and added stops themselves, at the risk of rejection, _maybe_ it'd have a chance. Right now, there's just too much process in the way. --Laurence "GreenReaper" Parry

Contributors to this page: HelmutLeitner, KrisJohnson, MarkDilley, StephenGilbert, IljaPreuß, AlexSchroeder, ThomasBayen, GreenReaper

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